How would you influence someone to consider the LCF lifestyle?
#1
Thunder Whisperer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: NE OK
Posts: 8,843
Bikes: '06 Kona Smoke
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
2 Posts
How would you influence someone to consider the LCF lifestyle?
I don't think that looking to the Politico's is the answer- it's grass roots. Also, there really isn't a universal "influence" people to make the transition to LCF. For every similarity in a community, there is also a distinction.
I personally would have no problem being LCF in my current town if left to my own, at least as long as my vision holds. My wife, on the other hand, is the polar opposite.
.
I personally would have no problem being LCF in my current town if left to my own, at least as long as my vision holds. My wife, on the other hand, is the polar opposite.
.
__________________
Community guidelines
Community guidelines
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
Portland, OR asked people what was keeping them in their cars. The answer was their fear of...other people in cars. While elected officials are good at lip service and short on performance, the city staff are where the rubber meets the road, at least in terms of mitigating that oft-cited fear of scofflaw motorists. Thus, my boring solution has been to get involved in organizations that can influence the city staff in my community. It's time consuming, frustrating and thankless, but my cohorts and I have begun to get some positive results. Equally important, we have prevented some negative things from happening.
It helps if you both know the engineering rules under which things happen as well as the local and state laws and policies. At least it helps here since our local traffic engineers and planners routinely violate state law and guidelines. It's just been their habit and no one has ever called them on it. After a few public calling-outs, they have begun to listen when we engage them rather than put up with the inevitable public shaming that will follow if they don't.
I truly believe that if we eliminated door zone bike lanes (bike lanes are good, but not if they are in the door zone), place sharrow markings with "bicyclists may use full lane" signs where the lanes are too narrow to share, enforced our traffic laws, placed traffic control devices to facilitate human powered folks instead of fossil fools, had sidewalks the length of every street, provided safe bike parking and subsidized reasonable public transport then motorists would be a minority of road users. Pick one or more and get to work locally.
It helps if you both know the engineering rules under which things happen as well as the local and state laws and policies. At least it helps here since our local traffic engineers and planners routinely violate state law and guidelines. It's just been their habit and no one has ever called them on it. After a few public calling-outs, they have begun to listen when we engage them rather than put up with the inevitable public shaming that will follow if they don't.
I truly believe that if we eliminated door zone bike lanes (bike lanes are good, but not if they are in the door zone), place sharrow markings with "bicyclists may use full lane" signs where the lanes are too narrow to share, enforced our traffic laws, placed traffic control devices to facilitate human powered folks instead of fossil fools, had sidewalks the length of every street, provided safe bike parking and subsidized reasonable public transport then motorists would be a minority of road users. Pick one or more and get to work locally.
#4
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,974
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
I truly believe that if we eliminated door zone bike lanes (bike lanes are good, but not if they are in the door zone), place sharrow markings with "bicyclists may use full lane" signs where the lanes are too narrow to share, enforced our traffic laws, placed traffic control devices to facilitate human powered folks instead of fossil fools, had sidewalks the length of every street, provided safe bike parking and subsidized reasonable public transport then motorists would be a minority of road users. Pick one or more and get to work locally.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
Although many of your suggestions may be helpful for people who are already bicyclists, and perhaps influence a relative few new bicyclists, I believe only your recommendation for subsidized reasonable public transport would or could have any significant (or even noticeable) effect on converting adults who already use their car daily to living car free. Of course "reasonable" would have to include an extensive network of routes and frequent scheduling from early morning until late evening at the very least.
As to the rest, I watched in dismay as external pressures led to a rapid increase in bike use in my city which then fell off almost as fast as it came into being. It seemed to me that the reason one-third of our bicycle-using commuters returned to their cars was the horrific hidden dangers of our infrastructure like door-zone bike lanes. (Those may seem obvious to anyone who rides, but to someone who is just starting they look like a welcoming place to ride until their first door encounter.) As I did some door-to-door canvasing on a related issue, I found that this situation was a concern to many people who had either given up riding or had dramatically reduced their saddle miles.
I could be wrong and it was a small sample set in one neighborhood, but I don't think the benefits of making our roads safer for people can be dismissed out of hand. Every person who gives up on cycling/walking/whatever and returns to the car not only contributes to the notion that it is hard to move about without a car, but they are no longer in the pool of folks who will show that it is quite easily doable.
We'll likely disagree here, but I just wanted you to know how I thought about it. I'd love to hear what you think would encourage more carfree living.
#6
bragi
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: seattle, WA
Posts: 2,911
Bikes: LHT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
I left the definition of reasonable up in the air since it would really depend on the community/region in question.
As to the rest, I watched in dismay as external pressures led to a rapid increase in bike use in my city which then fell off almost as fast as it came into being. It seemed to me that the reason one-third of our bicycle-using commuters returned to their cars was the horrific hidden dangers of our infrastructure like door-zone bike lanes. (Those may seem obvious to anyone who rides, but to someone who is just starting they look like a welcoming place to ride until their first door encounter.) As I did some door-to-door canvasing on a related issue, I found that this situation was a concern to many people who had either given up riding or had dramatically reduced their saddle miles.
I could be wrong and it was a small sample set in one neighborhood, but I don't think the benefits of making our roads safer for people can be dismissed out of hand. Every person who gives up on cycling/walking/whatever and returns to the car not only contributes to the notion that it is hard to move about without a car, but they are no longer in the pool of folks who will show that it is quite easily doable.
As to the rest, I watched in dismay as external pressures led to a rapid increase in bike use in my city which then fell off almost as fast as it came into being. It seemed to me that the reason one-third of our bicycle-using commuters returned to their cars was the horrific hidden dangers of our infrastructure like door-zone bike lanes. (Those may seem obvious to anyone who rides, but to someone who is just starting they look like a welcoming place to ride until their first door encounter.) As I did some door-to-door canvasing on a related issue, I found that this situation was a concern to many people who had either given up riding or had dramatically reduced their saddle miles.
I could be wrong and it was a small sample set in one neighborhood, but I don't think the benefits of making our roads safer for people can be dismissed out of hand. Every person who gives up on cycling/walking/whatever and returns to the car not only contributes to the notion that it is hard to move about without a car, but they are no longer in the pool of folks who will show that it is quite easily doable.
And honestly, is riding your bike in an area with no bicycle infrastructure actually "horrific"? I think this is an unhelpful exaggeration; talk like this makes people think bicycling is much more dangerous than it actually is. The surface streets of any large city are almost always decent places to ride a bike even if no bicycle infrastructure is there. If you spend a few seconds choosing routes wisely, follow traffic laws judiciously, dress for the weather, and stay at least minimally aware of what's going on around you, the odds are really high that you'll actually survive and probably even have fun riding your bike without a cycle track or bike lane anywhere near you. It's not like the average person is a completely helpless idiot.
#7
bragi
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: seattle, WA
Posts: 2,911
Bikes: LHT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
I don't think that looking to the Politico's is the answer- it's grass roots. Also, there really isn't a universal "influence" people to make the transition to LCF. For every similarity in a community, there is also a distinction.
I personally would have no problem being LCF in my current town if left to my own, at least as long as my vision holds. My wife, on the other hand, is the polar opposite.
.
I personally would have no problem being LCF in my current town if left to my own, at least as long as my vision holds. My wife, on the other hand, is the polar opposite.
.
#8
Membership Not Required
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
14 Posts
It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around. Many times all you need is someone to lead by quiet example, other times you need rabble rousers (evangelists if you will) to get people mad enough not to take it anymore. I fall in between.
Aaron
Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 222
Bikes: 90's Campione,90's trek multitrack,2005 trek 3700
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sidewalks, and a decent public transit system. I cover more miles on my legs than anything else.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
^ This. Plus a lot of times it opens up a dialogue for candid discussion. "What about when it gets cold?" "How do you get groceries?" "Isn't it dangerous?" Ie. Not proselytization. But this is just a way to spread acceptance, not influence usage.
^ This is what we have to change in order for the vast majority of people to shift to cycling. The way we design our communities has to change. I'm all about evangelizing for this part.
^ This is what we have to change in order for the vast majority of people to shift to cycling. The way we design our communities has to change. I'm all about evangelizing for this part.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Leading by example is fine, but if people see cycling as too dangerous, they're unlikely to take it up and even less likely to allow their kids to cycle, so I work through my local cycling organization, which is part of another group that pressures for change on a national level, to make sure the type of cycling infrastructure exists that allows for a safe commute.
I'm also fond of haranging in this forum.
I'm also fond of haranging in this forum.
Last edited by Ekdog; 10-03-13 at 07:13 AM.
#12
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,974
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
And honestly, is riding your bike in an area with no bicycle infrastructure actually "horrific"? I think this is an unhelpful exaggeration; talk like this makes people think bicycling is much more dangerous than it actually is. The surface streets of any large city are almost always decent places to ride a bike even if no bicycle infrastructure is there.
My experience in Philadelphia in the 50' though the 90's was: in exactly the same lateral location on the street regardless of parked cars. If a cyclist rides around blissfully unaware of his/her surroundings he/she may face more risks than someone who looks where he/she is going. Only in the ardent VCers nightmares/fear mongering stories are there any significant number of cyclists who are unaware that adjacent car doors can be opened in front of them, or that painted lines are not shields of invincibility.
#13
Pedaled too far.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: La Petite Roche
Posts: 12,851
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Leading by example is fine, but if people see cycling as too dangerous, they're unlikely to take it up and even less likely to allow their kids to cycle, so I work through my local cycling organization, which is part of another group that pressures for change on a national level, to make sure the type of cycling infrastructure exists that allows for a safe commute.
__________________
"He who serves all, best serves himself" Jack London
#14
"Florida Man"
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: East Florida
Posts: 1,667
Bikes: '16 Bob Jackson rando, '66 Raleigh Superbe, 80 Nishiki Maxima, 07 Gary Fisher Utopia, 09 Surly LHT
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1574 Post(s)
Liked 1,708 Times
in
857 Posts
No matter how badly people need the savings, the workout, or the peace of mind, they have to find it for themselves. You might convince them to try a new restaurant, or switch cell phone plans, but ditching the car is like:
__________________
Campione Del Mondo Immaginario
Campione Del Mondo Immaginario
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I'm in Helena Montana again.
Posts: 1,402
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Just ask people how much money they spent on gasoline last week. Multiply that number by 50 and tell them you don't spend any money at the gas pump. You buy groceries.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
We're not supposed to be discussing religion here, so why don't you knock it off?
#18
Senior Member
Is it OK if they start with driving less and using other options more? Actually, I don't think I've ever convinced anybody of anything.
#19
Membership Not Required
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855
Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
14 Posts
Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#20
In the right lane
I'm with Artkansas on this one: be a good example and don't talk about it much. I don't like evangelists of any type, and I think a bicycle evangelist might actually be even more annoying to most people than a Jehovah's Witness, or, heaven forbid, a self-righteous atheist.
Give you an example: in Des Moines, we have bike racks on every bus. These get used a lot. In fact, there's always a good chance your bike might not get on the bus. All cyclists love them especially in bad weather.
But... the reason those racks exist is that one individual canvassed city hall and the transit people. It took a while, but he didn't give up.
Without him, those quier cyclists wouldn't have racks.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Odenton, MD
Posts: 660
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I differ on this one. Without some people who are willing to chat up policiticans, get on city boards, keep up cycling web sites, a lot of the infrastructure and benefits that cyclist do see wouldn't exist.
Give you an example: in Des Moines, we have bike racks on every bus. These get used a lot. In fact, there's always a good chance your bike might not get on the bus. All cyclists love them especially in bad weather.
But... the reason those racks exist is that one individual canvassed city hall and the transit people. It took a while, but he didn't give up.
Without him, those quier cyclists wouldn't have racks.
Give you an example: in Des Moines, we have bike racks on every bus. These get used a lot. In fact, there's always a good chance your bike might not get on the bus. All cyclists love them especially in bad weather.
But... the reason those racks exist is that one individual canvassed city hall and the transit people. It took a while, but he didn't give up.
Without him, those quier cyclists wouldn't have racks.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
I'm a little skeptical that fully one-third of bicycle commuters went back to cars so quickly in your community. Here in Seattle, which is arguably a more arduous biking environment than Eugene, the numbers of bicycle commuters seems to be continuing to increase, even though our bicycle infrastructure is still kind of mediocre. In some parts of town on the weekends, I actually have a hard time finding a decent place to lock up my bike...
And honestly, is riding your bike in an area with no bicycle infrastructure actually "horrific"? I think this is an unhelpful exaggeration; talk like this makes people think bicycling is much more dangerous than it actually is. The surface streets of any large city are almost always decent places to ride a bike even if no bicycle infrastructure is there. If you spend a few seconds choosing routes wisely, follow traffic laws judiciously, dress for the weather, and stay at least minimally aware of what's going on around you, the odds are really high that you'll actually survive and probably even have fun riding your bike without a cycle track or bike lane anywhere near you. It's not like the average person is a completely helpless idiot.
And honestly, is riding your bike in an area with no bicycle infrastructure actually "horrific"? I think this is an unhelpful exaggeration; talk like this makes people think bicycling is much more dangerous than it actually is. The surface streets of any large city are almost always decent places to ride a bike even if no bicycle infrastructure is there. If you spend a few seconds choosing routes wisely, follow traffic laws judiciously, dress for the weather, and stay at least minimally aware of what's going on around you, the odds are really high that you'll actually survive and probably even have fun riding your bike without a cycle track or bike lane anywhere near you. It's not like the average person is a completely helpless idiot.
Now, none of those infrastructure failures would matter if we enforced our traffic laws. We don't so it does matter.
As far as losing one-third of our bike commuters, the data is in the US census American Community Survey. While I don't trust the data for comparing between different locales, I think it is a good measure of what is happening in a particular place over time. You can double-check these (I'm pulling them from memory, so please do).
Bike Commuters in Eugene:
2008: 7.8%
2009: 10.8%
2011: 7.3%
2012: somewhere between 8 and 8.5%
Yes, we really did lose one-third of our bike commuters between 2009 and 2011. It actually felt like we lost even more, but that's what the ACS reported. People tried it, they didn't like it so they returned to their cars.
#23
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,788
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
That IS a good way to look at it -- until I realize, the only place in the COUNTY where I live that I'd allow the kids to ride UNESCORTED, I can't afford to live in! If I'm WITH them, then it's irrelevant.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times
in
10 Posts
Recent studies show that lightrail actually increases car ownership! Transit oriented communites in the past were often poor minority neighborhoods. Many of those living in those communities are often too poor to afford a car. However, once a billion dollar lightrail is constructed, gentrification takes place with new construction and property taxes going through the roof. The poor in the neighborhood are replaced by middle and upper middle class who can afford cars.
#25
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,974
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
1. The questioner will be correctly judged as an obnoxious jerk;
2 The questioner better be prepared to compare the totality of his "lifestyle" vis-à-vis those he intends to mock. If the questioner can't convince anyone that he is indeed living better, he will only be considered a deluded fool.