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About electric vehicles

Old 05-17-21, 10:44 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
?? But what about the insane popularity of the Prius? I would have thought that gave it a huge head start in the EV business, but is being just hybrid a dead end?
Yes, all fossil fuel vehicles are dead ends. But the dead end is 15-30 years away.
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Old 05-17-21, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
I don't know about that, there's other reporting that up holds the point about lack of infrastructure to support a significant increase in EVs on the road. However, with a gradual increase, sure it's possible and I think the Chief of Toyota would agree.

I have nothing against EVs and I know their handling is very nice, especially in the all-wheel-drive models and the acceleration is crazy fast. All I'm saying is that I don't see any state doing away with new ICE vehicles sales by 2035, much less 2030.

As for the mining of minerals to support making all vehicles EV...I don't know who to believe on that issue. And then you got technological advancements....that's the wild card.
.
California is doing away with all new ICE vehicle sales by 2035.

Toyota will be a major player in (pure) EVs, Akio Toyoda is just trying to slow the evolution down to wring more longevity out of their hybrid tech. And he's getting push back on that position: https://www.autoblog.com/2021/05/10/...ne-diesel-ban/
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Old 05-17-21, 11:13 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
California is doing away with all new ICE vehicle sales by 2035.

Toyota will be a major player in (pure) EVs, Akio Toyoda is just trying to slow the evolution down to wring more longevity out of their hybrid tech. And he's getting push back on that position: https://www.autoblog.com/2021/05/10/...ne-diesel-ban/
I'll be interested to watch to progression of this
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Old 05-17-21, 11:14 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by downtube42 View Post
When a forklift is unloaded, it's quite unstable; that's because the counterweight CG is fairly high, and when unloaded the truck is severely out of balance towards the rear. Untrained drivers often believe they are more stable when unloaded, leading to reckless behaviors. The battery box is placed as low as possible, to maximize stability, just like it would be on a car.

Incidentally, another common untrained driver mistake is to jump from a tipping truck. Often they get just far enough away to be crushed by the overhead guard. Combine the hot rodding when empty with the tendency to jump, and you have a formula for serious injuries with untrained drivers.
I've been an untrained forklift driver myself and the greatest danger is probably that they feel much more stable and light than they are. I think the rear wheel steering ads a lot to that too, just like it's possible to tip over a Citroen 2CV in reverse while going forward much faster only makes it feel like it's going to tip over.

Anyway, in a car you can't have the battery in the rear just like cars can't have a watercooled V8 in the rear, and a battery tends to be heavier. It's got to be between the axles for handling and probably also for crash safety, and as low as possible. This doesn't stand in the way of swappable batteries but it would have to be done from the underside and limit manufacturers in the structural design of the car. That's not an insurmountable issue at all, but it affects the design/marketing combo and rub the legal/patent departement the wrong way. It's not about global warming for them, it's about selling new cars and not coming out of a corner facing the wrong way helps.

Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
I read an article recently that was an open letter from a volcanologist regarding an active/erupting volcano in Norway IIRC...anyway, he was basically saying that the last week of emissions from the volcano had added more 'pollution' to the atmosphere than the entire industrial period of humanity. Of course, articles of this type are so charged it's hard to know if true or not. In spite of that aspect I am just not sure that humanity really has the power or knowledge to control global heat/cooling cycles. Anywho, that is a WHOLE different subject that leans towards another sub forum here, and I have no interest in further diverting the discussion.
A volcano eruption might also blur the sun for a couple of years and cool down the earth, it might send particles into the atmosphere that will destroy jet engines and together with the starvation through bad harvests. But it's the human influence and therefore the baseline we can take control over, but to get back to the subject of EV's, we don't.

The business model of selling new cars has taken over. New is always bad for the environment, but the urge of governments to do something rather than doing the most effective is being exploited. The car is specifically targeted hard because it's a citizen's polluter while the industry is much bigger problem. Air travel is kept out of the equasion for political reasons, just like China and all the often not so durable stuff we buy from there is. I believe it's a good idea to clean up the cars and admire Tesla for forcing a break through, which was done by making the EV better, something to cophet. But a 2 ton vehicle that goes to 60 mp/h in less than 3 seconds is wasteful of course, not to mention that it will increase air travel because of it's range.

I believe it would make more sense to not pretend electricity is clean and promote several different kinds of reducing emmissions from car travel. .
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Old 05-17-21, 11:54 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...I always suspected you were not a patriotic American. This only confirms it for me. I once drove the entire length of the Autostrada from Naples to Rome in a '67 Alfa Spyder with the top down at 90mph ( I forget what that is in kph). It was very fun, and we had fun in Rome that day, too.
When I was a testosterone-filled young buck, I bought myself a Saab 9-3 because it was 'fun', but now I am old and wise and understand how much damage car culture has done.

Also I drive as if I were older than you. My wife is constantly telling me change lanes and pass people. I never feel 'stuck' behind somebody slow, 55mph on the freeway inside an air-conditioned, leather-seated mobile living room is a ridiculously extravagant luxury.
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Old 05-17-21, 12:26 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Those simple kits leave out the power steering pump, AC, etc. (anything powered by the ICE needs its own motor now because you don't have an idling engine), and there's no regenerative braking, no fast charging (needs sophisticated cooling), etc. Performance would be dismal. They're for hobbyists and special projects.
That's where we are right now, but I think as interest/demand increases, supply/technology will respond, and available solutions will be more viable for more scenarios. ICE cars with busted engines and perfectly-good drivetrains/bodies can be had for a song, I foresee a cottage industry growing of auto shops that snap them up, retrofit them (using their expertise to mitigate some of those issues you mention better than the average DIY weekend warrior could), and make a reasonable profit selling them at a competitive price.
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Old 05-17-21, 02:09 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
When I was a testosterone-filled young buck, I bought myself a Saab 9-3 because it was 'fun', but now I am old and wise and understand how much damage car culture has done.

Also I drive as if I were older than you. My wife is constantly telling me change lanes and pass people. I never feel 'stuck' behind somebody slow, 55mph on the freeway inside an air-conditioned, leather-seated mobile living room is a ridiculously extravagant luxury.

...my god, that's depressing. Now I has a sad.
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Old 05-17-21, 02:14 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
That's where we are right now, but I think as interest/demand increases, supply/technology will respond, and available solutions will be more viable for more scenarios. ICE cars with busted engines and perfectly-good drivetrains/bodies can be had for a song, I foresee a cottage industry growing of auto shops that snap them up, retrofit them (using their expertise to mitigate some of those issues you mention better than the average DIY weekend warrior could), and make a reasonable profit selling them at a competitive price.
...the conversion to electric uses a completely different method of driving the wheels, usually at least two electric drive motors on the front wheels (but it could be rear wheel drive, I guess). Mostly, the reason that class I took in conversion back in the 80's at City College focused on small pickups is that it makes it easier to place the batteries someplace where they won't make the car dangerous. And the suspensions are beefier, so you can handle the extra weight better.

I have done engine swaps. Conversion to electric is not like that at all.
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Old 05-17-21, 02:35 PM
  #84  
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Interesting. My instinct is to try to save all the good parts, but I guess it's not that easy. Hopefully the existing car salvage industry is already good at at least reclaiming all the raw materials. Or maybe all the discarded ICE cars will trickle down to like Mexico etc.

When was it, early Obama, when the federal government subsidized getting rid of gas guzzlers for more modern, efficient cars? This will be like that, except replacing an on-average newer national fleet.
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Old 05-17-21, 02:35 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...my god, that's depressing. Now I has a sad.
What, realizing I'm wise?
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Old 05-17-21, 02:49 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
I think you may be getting some misinformation... My brother-in-law has had a Tesla for 2 or 3 years, and he was recently encouraging me to consider one. He says rolling into the equivalent of a gas station -- i.e., the charging stations that the Tesla app identifies on the dashboard navigation gizmo, I'm guessing those must be the 440V connection? -- and "filling up" is typically a 30 minute stop. So time for two roller hot dogs, and maybe a quick cat nap.
I was doing some reading on Tesla themselves, however I cannot recall which model I was perusing when we came across that. I have no first hand experience to call upon, so would have to defer to other first hand accounts (can't think of the darned word, lol).
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Old 05-17-21, 02:55 PM
  #87  
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eyewitness testimony?
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Old 05-17-21, 06:44 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
When I was a testosterone-filled young buck, I bought myself a Saab 9-3 because it was 'fun', but now I am old and wise and understand how much damage car culture has done.

Also I drive as if I were older than you. My wife is constantly telling me change lanes and pass people. I never feel 'stuck' behind somebody slow, 55mph on the freeway inside an air-conditioned, leather-seated mobile living room is a ridiculously extravagant luxury.
I think I was 40 when I got my first car with cruise control. It was a massive old Buick with a massive motor that burned massive amounts of premium. One day I realized I could set the cruise to 55, sit in the right lane, and chill out listening to my stereo blasting out the tunes whilst nobody could tell me anything. I didn't even need the rear view mirror. Once in that frame of mind, it's not a stretch to stop and check out the World's Largest Ball of Twine or the National Corvette Museum, or the Bikini Barista coffee shack, or whatever the $&*# else looks interesting.
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Old 05-17-21, 09:24 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
It might have a 500 mile range, but you are looking at $70,000. I have to admit that this scares me to death. I have a fear that - in an effort to maximize new profit streams - the auto industry is going to forcibly make obsolete our beloved ICE vehicles. Like was mentioned earlier, I don't see it happening too soon, but is that wishful thinking? Do I have my head up my a... have my head in the sand?
Not to worry, since there's always going to be a basic consumer grade market, and like now, in not everyone is driving a muscle car either. I can see ten years from now, where a 500 mile range will the norm, and no longer be an eye catching selling point.....cell phones being a clue.......
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Old 05-18-21, 12:08 AM
  #90  
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I'm gonna have my electrified "classic car" be a 2002 WRX.

I did fuel cells for my master's thesis, lo these many years ago. I learned a lot. The ones that work the best run hot and pure, with a strongly caustic electrolyte - that's the kind on the Space Shuttle for example. They are entirely unreasonable for a highway car just as a power plant and then those vehicles carry liquid hydrogen and oxygen. If you want to run at non-plastic-melting temperature with a solid polymer electrolyte and air oxidizer, you can't make much amperage at the oxygen electrode, which is why you see these crazy stacks of cells and battery-heavy hybrid arrangements. The thing they* were all looking for at the time was a way to run CNG or LNG or methanol at the fuel electrode without some bonkers quantity of platinum or palladium for a catalyst. So far as I know there hasn't been any further big advances in the technology of the power plant. Tesla, though, has shown that the real revolution does not come from wishing to make it work a certain way. They took a lot of existing technology, some of it like the battery packs just a pure bodge, and wrapped it in a glam package. The revolution comes from creating a functioning business model. If Toyota wants to sell fuel cell cars they need to put in the hydrogen stations. Waiting for the cells themselves to get better is like waiting for nuclear fusion power.

* I say "they" because my own work was about hydrogen peroxide as an oxidizer and that's got nothing to do with anything roadgoing
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Old 05-18-21, 03:53 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by roundypndr View Post
Not to worry, since there's always going to be a basic consumer grade market, and like now, in not everyone is driving a muscle car either. I can see ten years from now, where a 500 mile range will the norm, and no longer be an eye catching selling point.....cell phones being a clue.......
Good point. I guess it'll be what it is, and we'll all adapt.
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Old 05-18-21, 07:38 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by J.Higgins View Post
Good point. I guess it'll be what it is, and we'll all adapt.
I made a reference to electric cars and cell phones, I just happen to remember this TV scene that one of my former co-workers, who worked in the IT department, just loved, and would play it on occasion for a good laugh.

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Old 05-18-21, 08:35 AM
  #93  
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"What are you gonna use it for?"

...


"porn"
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Old 05-18-21, 09:12 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Toyota will be very strong in EVs, they just want to keep ICE and hybrids profitable for as long as possible.
not too shabby for a company that began by making sewing machines. That logo is not a cowboy 🤠 hat, thread 🧵 passing through eye of needle
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Old 05-18-21, 04:36 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
Air travel is kept out of the equasion for political reasons,
I tend to wonder if much of the condemnation of air travel is from people who've already been lucky enough to be able to do all the traveling they want to do, and now are going to come down on all of the other people who also want the chance to see the world...


Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
When I was a testosterone-filled young buck, I bought myself a Saab 9-3 because it was 'fun', but now I am old and wise and understand how much damage car culture has done.

Also I drive as if I were older than you. My wife is constantly telling me change lanes and pass people. I never feel 'stuck' behind somebody slow, 55mph on the freeway inside an air-conditioned, leather-seated mobile living room is a ridiculously extravagant luxury.
"Fun" driving would be fun, but I wouldn't spend the extra coin on a "fun" car when I'd only get to use it to toodle through the suburbs and in freeway traffic where I might not even get it up to the speed limit... (and where half the year I have to drive slowly anyway because the roads are icy, and the rest of the time I have to drive slowly because they're full of potholes or are construction zones.)


Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Interesting. My instinct is to try to save all the good parts, but I guess it's not that easy. Hopefully the existing car salvage industry is already good at at least reclaiming all the raw materials. Or maybe all the discarded ICE cars will trickle down to like Mexico etc.

When was it, early Obama, when the federal government subsidized getting rid of gas guzzlers for more modern, efficient cars? This will be like that, except replacing an on-average newer national fleet.
Even if gas cars aren't still sold new, they'll be kicking around the used market for years to come. Not everyone wants to and/or can afford to buy brand-new cars.
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Old 05-18-21, 04:39 PM
  #96  
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For as long as I can remember, new car prizes from THe Price Is Right always mention that they meet CA emissions standards. I wonder if on or before 2035, TPIR will start giving away only electric cars?
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Old 05-19-21, 09:18 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Kat12 View Post
I tend to wonder if much of the condemnation of air travel is from people who've already been lucky enough to be able to do all the traveling they want to do, and now are going to come down on all of the other people who also want the chance to see the world...
Fair question, allthough it seems obvious that we can't burn fossil fuels or drain the planet like the previous generation in other ways either. And I can only answer it from my view on travel and tourism. For me personally, I decided halfway the 90's not to 'see the world' as was the trend back then, especially for my generation in my location (Netherlands). The relatively huge contribution of air travel as was already known then was a big part of that decision, but it wasn't much of a sacrifice for me personally because I don't cramped space, I don't like monotonous noise, I don't like checks and uniforms, I don't like waiting, I don't like airports, I don't like the detachment from the journey of flying, I don't like the patronizing arrogant attitude of air travel professionals from back then, all in all it's not a very good beginning of a vaction for me. I don't have a lifelong fascination with a specific culture or nature on another continent either.

But most people don't. The people with 'fernweh', the adventurers who get restless and have to explore the world, are really rare and not the problem. Most air travellers are just tourists, the don't see the world, they all go to see the same little parts of the world, all together they don't see anymore of the world than an area the size of Rhode Island probably. Lots of those travellers come back with stories of what a huge coincidence they encountered, they saw somenone they knew at the other end fo the earth, but that's not a coincidence at all. And like all tourists, they are usually part of the process of destroying the thing they came to see. From the 90's here students started flying to Thailand instead of going to Spain because if it was for longer than two weeks the cost of living there would actually more than compensate for the price of the flight. So let's not make it more important and beautiful than it is, at least most of it.

Seeing the world is a privilege anyway, if people have to treat it as such they will still be able to do so, just not very often and indifferently. But I'm not prepared to sacrifice much of my modest energy consumption in order to allow people to fly to another continent for a nice selfie spot, show off a vegan dinner there in name of the environment, or for their 'passion' for the nature there while they never bothered to visit a forest close by. If it's really that important to people, they'll manage to pay all of the real costs.
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Old 05-19-21, 09:21 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
Most air travellers are just tourists, the don't see the world, they all go to see the same little parts of the world, all together they don't see anymore of the world than an area the size of Rhode Island probably.
I would have guessed that the bulk of air travel is for business. Is that not the case? Or maybe that's within-country, but international travel is more tourism?
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Old 05-19-21, 09:25 AM
  #99  
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An aspect of the above that I am curious to see how unfolds....

Right now air travels expense for basic flight accommodations are in line with travel costs by car when you factor gas, not time, in a very general way. What happens when the only way you CAN travel across the country in a quick fashion is by plane? And then, since you can't take your car, what are rental prices going to jump to with the captive travelers?

I see a big effin' coming.
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Old 05-19-21, 10:50 AM
  #100  
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And how does that equation change if/when we reach a state such that cars reach a level of autonomy that they are approved for completely automatic (no attention needed) travel on interstate freeways? You pay attention to get on and off the freeways and can then check out, read a book, sleep, etc. The car will alert you if it ever needs attention (detects degraded conditions it is not able/allowed to drive in), or safely pull over.
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