tiger1964 

I thought velobase might help, but not seeing any data. We talk a lot about # of teeth a rear derailleur can handle, but I am curious about "throw", the width the unit can move and what number of sprockets it might handle.

I am considering playing with a conversion of a bike (maybe a couple of bikes) to a "1x" conversion, but a mere 5 gears might be really limiting. So I contemplate going to more cogs, 6 or 7 (freewheel, not cassette/freehub) and of course there are narrow/compact versions of some; and this probably means also relishing a wheel, cold-setting a frame, and changing axle spacers.

For starters I am looking hard at making such a change on either a big with a Campagnolo Nuovo Record, or a Suntour Superbe; in either case the derailleur will not be replaced with another brand or model. Is there anywhere where the "throw" is known?

Aardwolf

I've tried this on my 1982 Holdsworth Avanti,
It's originally 2x6 speed and 126mm rear dropout.

The following is what I've got working without any cold settingThe SunTour Cyclone MKII will shift 7 gears with no issues, for 8 I filed down one of the stops a bit.

If you're on 120mm OLD I'd suggest looking at SunTour New Winner or similar which will give 6 gears in 120ish mm.

mpetry912 

given your constrained selection of rear derailleurs the limiting case will likely be the teeth count.

consider a recent MTB derailleur and I think you can do 8 speeds without difficulty, up to about 32t

/markp

RCMoeur 

Sometimes it can depend on the hub type. My old Suntour V on an external claw hanger will reach the largest cog on a 7 speed freewheel without bottoming out on the Low stop, but not on a cassette freehub, even though the cog spacing is the same. Apparently the freehub is inset just a small amount farther inward than the freewheel. And I can't seem to access the stop with even the narrowest file to "persuade" the derailleur to go that little bit farther (the parallelogram arms are almost touching anyway).

Aardwolf

That's one of the good things about SunTour Cyclone MkII - it's really easy to get at the stop.
In theory my SunTour VX could probably do 8, but you would have to disassembe the parallelgram to reach the stops.

SurferRosa

Disraeli Gears has more rd info and lots of uploaded docs.

https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site/home.html

tiger1964 

It occurred to me I could try to figure out how to set up a dial indicator (I have one and I think a magnetic base), and back out the H-L screws all the way for a test, but that might prove inconclusive.

Thanks, that's a data point. Some chance the Cyclone and Superbe have similar/identical "sweep"; then again, maybe not.

?? ?? I have an (admittedly modified) NR doing 13-32 out back with 52/42 up front and it's doing just fine. That's more tooth count than I think I need in this application. True, riding in really hilly locations would be problematic but that's not the plan. With two of the bikes I'm considering this for being Full Campy, a MTB derailleur would work but I would not be doing that.

Hmm, should I be keeping "freewheel spacer" in the back of my mind? I had not considered that.

Again, thanks, I really should have bookmarked that site long ago. I read all the listings for the NR and the Superbe, and variations, none mention sweep or span or whatever you call it, although there is a lot of info including pulley spacing.

79pmooney

I think the old SunTour throws (edit: sweeps, spans) closely matched the progression of OLDs (ie dropout widths) as they progressed from 120mm to 126 to 130. Now 126 came along early in the SunTour timeline in this country and I suspect any SunTour you can get you hands on will do 6 or 7-speed but I don't think any pre 1980 (I don't have a good handle on when the switch to 8-speed started; my post head-injury years and my world was small) SunTours could do 8, 9 or more-speed on 130 OLD dropouts. Pretty darn certain in saying Cyclone Mk1 couldn't, Mk2s could. (Probably the driving force to make the Mk2s.)

I haven't use a ton of Superbe stuff. Saw it every work day 1977 in our shop window. Shop was a Fuji dealer and tied to the Fuji distributor for New England. That year Fuji came out with a snazzier Professional with the very first Superbe gruppo. Drool stuff. The narrow Ultra-6 also. Next year, 7-speed using the same narrow spacing. (My head injury and subsequent failure of the SunTour progression reporting.)

alcjphil

My Raleigh Professional MK IV was equipped with a 6 speed freewheel and 126 mm dropout spacing. A big deal in 1973. I later converted it to 7 speed without any modifications using a Sach Aris 12-26 freewheel. Shifting was always as good as a Campagnolo Nuovo Record RD could manage

jdawginsc 

I have heard these vintage friction derailleurs can handle 8-9 speeds...
Suntour VGT
SunTour Sprint
Suntour Superbe Pro (next to last versions)
Shimano 600EX (62-67?)
7200 series DA ??
Nuovo/Super Record
SunTour LePree
Shimano Dura Ace 740x

I wish to try the ARX to see.

Howver, most are limited to 26 teeth and may not wrap well with weird gearing choices.

scarlson 

I can add to this!

Can confirm the LePree did 9 speeds just fine, only it was pretty far from the little 11 or 12t cog because the parallelogram isn't super slanted and the top pulley is coaxial with the cage pivot. This meant sloppy shifting in the high gears because of the large chain gap, but decent shifting in the lower gears.
For me, the VGT couldn't even do 8. Only 7. Wouldn't reach the big cog, but I didn't try filing.
My Cyclone M2 shifts 9 speeds, but not well, even with the stop filed down. I wouldn't quite recommend it! It has the same problem as the LePree.
Simplex SLJ (dropped parallelogram version) will do 9 speeds all day long, with fairly adequate performance.
I have shifted 9 speeds with a Shimano Super Plate Deer Head. Also the non Super Plate version. The Super Plates shift very well - when they work!

nlerner

In a recent thread, I was asking about friction shifting an 8-speed cassette with 32t max cog. I wasn’t able to get a SunTour VGT to shift onto that large cog, and the advice I got here was that it wasn’t capable. Switched to Shimano LX and all is well.

Aardwolf

I'm friction shifting an SRAM PG-850 11-32 8 speed cassette with a SunTour Cyclone Mk2 GT + SunTour power shifters.

52telecaster

In my limited experience everything has to be perfect for the v or vxgt to do 8. I stop at 7 as I'm usually not capable of perfection.

tiger1964 

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcjphil

My Raleigh Professional MK IV was equipped with a 6 speed freewheel and 126 mm dropout spacing. A big deal in 1973. I later converted it to 7 speed without any modifications using a Sach Aris 12-26 freewheel. Shifting was always as good as a Campagnolo Nuovo Record RD could manage

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdawginsc

I have heard these vintage friction derailleurs can handle 8-9 speeds

Well, progress! I might be able to go to at least 7 gears on the NR, and depending on differences between my earlier Superbe and the Superbe Pro, maybe that as well. It might be worthwhile to start exploring what I’ll need (freewheels, chains BB to correct chainlink, etc.)

Why am I doing this??? Because in some circumstances, while I want to enjoy the C&V experience, and the C&V aesthetic… I find index shifting might be more important than before. I’ve been friction shifting for 52 years and usually when riding by myself or with friends, it has sufficed. But recently I went on two group rides perhaps two weeks apart, on the same route, and I found myself among fast riders — in a pace line, and up-n-down short rolling hills. Keeping up was challenging. 1st ride, on my Palo Alto (that’s the Superbe set-up) at 22.5LB and on 25mm Conti GP5000’s which I thought I was quick — I struggled. Got dropped a couple of times and was lucky enough to catch the leaders at stopsigns/stoplights. 2nd ride, I took my Falcon with an IGH (you can look up my recent build topic if curious) which is a full 3LB heavier, on 28mm GP5000’s — and I still did much better (I still need get stronger to start taking pulls at the front), afterwards the leaders said they were surprised that I kept up. I’ve convinced myself the significant factor is on the former I’d be reluctant to take to time to make the frequent shifts to optimize performance (especially in the tight confines of the pace line), whereas the Falcon’s click-to-shift, even on the downtube, gave me the almost instantaneous shifting so I worked a fair amount of the range (well, I still have not needed 1st or 8th yet, so extreme). So I’m thinking I want at least one bike for those times I might really want to hustle. A corollary of all this is that I presume I'm friction-shifting about as fast as I am ever going to...

Wait a minute! Neither a Nuovo Record nor a Superbe are indexed! Yeah, I know, but ever since someone sent a link to the ARCHER D1X “gadget” to electrically index-shift any derailleur, I’ve been curious, and the latest version is unobtrusive and only 133 grams. No final calculations but adding two cogs in the back plus the D1X might be offset by losing a chainring and front derailleur, tolerably close to a wash on all-up weight (note to self, weigh bike before starting!) Right now, my candidate is the 1988 Masi whose Campy grouppo is from the wrong era anyway so I might be tolerant of this kind of modification. Oh, and I’ll need, like I did on a Raleigh recently, to add the Wolf RoadLink and Soma long cages to get a NR to cope with a, say, 13-30 freewheel and whatever single chainring gives me the ratios I want.