White Industries Rear Hub Failure
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White Industries Rear Hub Failure
Hi,
After about 11,000 miles of riding our Cannondale Road Tandem, the rear wheel felt a little sloppy, kind of like if the rear tire was low or flat. At the next stop a pinch of the rear tire ruled that out. But, upon closer inspection of the rear hub, I was shocked to see that two places on the drive-side hub flange had failed and one place on the non drive-side hub flange had also failed There's also a crack on the drive-side flange where another chunk of the hub is about to pull out and two more spokes will be gone. I'm very surprised with this level of failure of a tandem specific White Industries hub after not that many miles, relatively, but maybe I shouldn't be. Together we weigh in at around 310 (170 front/140 rear) lbs and when we go touring our rear panniers are usually around 45 pounds total, 8 lbs in the rear trunk bag on top of the rack, and no panniers or handlebar bag on the front. The bulk of the 11,000 miles are on paved surfaces but we have ridden on some gravel roads and paths occasionally. This White Industries rear hub is a 40h hub and about 3.5 years old. Either there were defects in the hub, the wheel was built up wrong (wrong spoke tension), or we just plain overloaded the wheel. No damage to the rim. The bike has not been wrecked or ridden anywhere that I would have expected this level of failure of a hub.
Any input on likely causes and recommendations for a more robust wheel that is suitable for loaded tandem touring would be greatly appreciated.
John
After about 11,000 miles of riding our Cannondale Road Tandem, the rear wheel felt a little sloppy, kind of like if the rear tire was low or flat. At the next stop a pinch of the rear tire ruled that out. But, upon closer inspection of the rear hub, I was shocked to see that two places on the drive-side hub flange had failed and one place on the non drive-side hub flange had also failed There's also a crack on the drive-side flange where another chunk of the hub is about to pull out and two more spokes will be gone. I'm very surprised with this level of failure of a tandem specific White Industries hub after not that many miles, relatively, but maybe I shouldn't be. Together we weigh in at around 310 (170 front/140 rear) lbs and when we go touring our rear panniers are usually around 45 pounds total, 8 lbs in the rear trunk bag on top of the rack, and no panniers or handlebar bag on the front. The bulk of the 11,000 miles are on paved surfaces but we have ridden on some gravel roads and paths occasionally. This White Industries rear hub is a 40h hub and about 3.5 years old. Either there were defects in the hub, the wheel was built up wrong (wrong spoke tension), or we just plain overloaded the wheel. No damage to the rim. The bike has not been wrecked or ridden anywhere that I would have expected this level of failure of a hub.
Any input on likely causes and recommendations for a more robust wheel that is suitable for loaded tandem touring would be greatly appreciated.
John
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#2
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Sh*t happens. In our experience, things just fail on tandems faster than on single bikes due to the increased load.
11,000 miles on a high quality tandem specific hub is admittedly pretty quick to fail. It’s likely due to a manufacturing defect in that hub, improper spoke tension, one or more traumatic hits to the wheel, or a combination of the above.
we did have problems with Roloff hub flanges failing. However that was likely the result of the high spoke tension from the paired spoke design, and I wouldn’t really expect that from a properly tensioned 40 spoke wheel.
I’d just replace the wheel, make sure the spoke tension on the new wheel is correct and not worry too much about it.
11,000 miles on a high quality tandem specific hub is admittedly pretty quick to fail. It’s likely due to a manufacturing defect in that hub, improper spoke tension, one or more traumatic hits to the wheel, or a combination of the above.
we did have problems with Roloff hub flanges failing. However that was likely the result of the high spoke tension from the paired spoke design, and I wouldn’t really expect that from a properly tensioned 40 spoke wheel.
I’d just replace the wheel, make sure the spoke tension on the new wheel is correct and not worry too much about it.
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For loaded tandem touring, you probably can't do much better than Phil Wood. Touring has always been their forte. However, in the changing world, I'm not sure what they're offering now:
https://phil-wood-co.myshopify.com/c...s/cassette-hub
I do not see a specific tandem hub listed in their product lineup. However, you may just pick the rear spacing, drilling & disc option to get what you need. Nope, only offering 135mm QR or 142mm X 12 through axle:
https://phil-wood-co.myshopify.com/c...29614836449355
And:
"*ISO disc hubs will be discontinued soon."
So unfortunately, it looks like Phil has exited the tandem market for anyone not running through axles.
I'd choose Chris King as an alternative. Be sure to spec a stainless steel freehub body. You don't need or want an aluminum freehub body for tandem use.
I'd also highly recommend your next build be with butted spokes. The higher elasticity will spread spoke tension changes throughout the wheel better.
PS Another option is DT/Swiss. They've provided quality tandem hubs for decades now. They've had their issues, but have generally resolved them. The easy serviceability in the field is also a huge plus. Freehub body can be removed by hand to access the ratchets. I just did a 500 mile France tour with them. I carried spare ratchets just in case, but never needed them. The Hugi hubs (predecessor to DT/Swiss, but the original design) on my '93 Cannondale are still going strong. Never serviced them; They've never as much as HINTED at skipping or having issues.
https://phil-wood-co.myshopify.com/c...s/cassette-hub
I do not see a specific tandem hub listed in their product lineup. However, you may just pick the rear spacing, drilling & disc option to get what you need. Nope, only offering 135mm QR or 142mm X 12 through axle:
https://phil-wood-co.myshopify.com/c...29614836449355
And:
"*ISO disc hubs will be discontinued soon."
So unfortunately, it looks like Phil has exited the tandem market for anyone not running through axles.
I'd choose Chris King as an alternative. Be sure to spec a stainless steel freehub body. You don't need or want an aluminum freehub body for tandem use.
I'd also highly recommend your next build be with butted spokes. The higher elasticity will spread spoke tension changes throughout the wheel better.
PS Another option is DT/Swiss. They've provided quality tandem hubs for decades now. They've had their issues, but have generally resolved them. The easy serviceability in the field is also a huge plus. Freehub body can be removed by hand to access the ratchets. I just did a 500 mile France tour with them. I carried spare ratchets just in case, but never needed them. The Hugi hubs (predecessor to DT/Swiss, but the original design) on my '93 Cannondale are still going strong. Never serviced them; They've never as much as HINTED at skipping or having issues.
Last edited by LV2TNDM; 07-22-22 at 02:08 PM.
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White Industry has a 5 year warranty: https://www.whiteind.com/wp-content/...urn-Policy.pdf
(I don't know how long you have had yours, but I would bring this to their attention.)
Chris King, FWIW, has a lifetime warranty.
(I don't know how long you have had yours, but I would bring this to their attention.)
Chris King, FWIW, has a lifetime warranty.
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Have you contacted White Industries? I have found bike-gear companies almost universally eager to make things right, even when years out of warranty and with no obligation to do so.
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[QUOTE=sapporoguy;22584060]Have you contacted White Industries? I have found bike-gear companies almost universally eager to make things right, even when years out of warranty and with no obligation to 2
i 2nd this, i have found white very accommodating to warranty concerns
i 2nd this, i have found white very accommodating to warranty concerns
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White Industry has a 5 year warranty: https://www.whiteind.com/wp-content/...urn-Policy.pdf
(I don't know how long you have had yours, but I would bring this to their attention.)
(I don't know how long you have had yours, but I would bring this to their attention.)
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The wheels always stayed true and I never had any issues with the them outside the rear hub flange fractures.
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I've got 3 (non-tandem) wheel-sets with White Industry hubs, and haven't had a problem, but your experience makes me very reluctant to go back to them. My experience with Chris King is that they go well beyond the call of duty to make things right.
If you need new wheels, and can get Chris King, I recommend them without hesitation.
If you need new wheels, and can get Chris King, I recommend them without hesitation.
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What were WI’s conclusions about the cause of the first failure?
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I am also surprised that your hub took that kind of damage. I have a 1990 Burly Bongo. When purchased the wife and I combined weight was near 400lbs. The cheap Wheel set it came with had broken spokes anda bent axle within a week. I ordered 48 spoked Phil Wood tandem hubs and new rims and spokes. We rode it for near twenty years and part of that time Towing a two wheeled cart with our children. There Has never been hub damage. No spoke breakage but cracked rims a half dozen times. the White industries Tandem rear hub weighs 306 grams The Phil Wood Tandem rear hub weighs 506 grams. The price is also higher.
Last edited by Rick; 07-26-22 at 05:11 PM.
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we did have problems with Roloff hub flanges failing. However that was likely the result of the high spoke tension from the paired spoke design, and I wouldn’t really expect that from a properly tensioned 40 spoke wheel.
#14
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Straight gauge spokes can cause or exacerbate this type of problem because of the lack of elasticity. The length of the elbow, the angle of the elbow and the shape of the spoke head can also cause problems if they don't fit the spoke hole/flange properly.
I don't like the fit of DTSwiss spokes in most non-DT hubs. They have messed with the shape of the elbow to facilitate the ease of machine building at the expense of longevity. Hub flange and spoke elbow failure seem too common in these combinations.
10000 miles is not the duty life we would like but it also is not insignificant on any bike but especially a tandem. Disc brakes put tremendous stresses on hubs the we didn't see with rim brakes. We don't have a lot of good current choices for any tandem duty components, particularly QR hubs and touring rims. Component manufacturers just don't see a market and too many tandem makers are using single bike parts and assuming that most owners will get on with them in OK fashion. Our anecdotes of "lifetime" parts from decades past are just that-history not likely to occur again soon. By most standards WI and Rohloff are probably more supportive of the tandem community than other component suppliers.
I don't like the fit of DTSwiss spokes in most non-DT hubs. They have messed with the shape of the elbow to facilitate the ease of machine building at the expense of longevity. Hub flange and spoke elbow failure seem too common in these combinations.
10000 miles is not the duty life we would like but it also is not insignificant on any bike but especially a tandem. Disc brakes put tremendous stresses on hubs the we didn't see with rim brakes. We don't have a lot of good current choices for any tandem duty components, particularly QR hubs and touring rims. Component manufacturers just don't see a market and too many tandem makers are using single bike parts and assuming that most owners will get on with them in OK fashion. Our anecdotes of "lifetime" parts from decades past are just that-history not likely to occur again soon. By most standards WI and Rohloff are probably more supportive of the tandem community than other component suppliers.
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Finally got ahold of the guy that I always deal with at the LBS (who was also the same one that got me the warranty replacement on the first failed WI hub). He has been in training and won't be available to look at the wheel until this coming Friday. He said he planned on taking some pictures and reporting it to WI so I'll let you know what they have to say when we hear back from them.
#16
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If you have had it happen twice it seems like something is putting excessive stress on the hub flange.
I have WI hubs on our tandem since 2011 and have had no problem.
I have WI hubs on our tandem since 2011 and have had no problem.
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Straight gauge spokes can cause or exacerbate this type of problem because of the lack of elasticity. The length of the elbow, the angle of the elbow and the shape of the spoke head can also cause problems if they don't fit the spoke hole/flange properly.
I don't like the fit of DTSwiss spokes in most non-DT hubs. They have messed with the shape of the elbow to facilitate the ease of machine building at the expense of longevity. Hub flange and spoke elbow failure seem too common in these combinations.
10000 miles is not the duty life we would like but it also is not insignificant on any bike but especially a tandem. Disc brakes put tremendous stresses on hubs the we didn't see with rim brakes. We don't have a lot of good current choices for any tandem duty components, particularly QR hubs and touring rims. Component manufacturers just don't see a market and too many tandem makers are using single bike parts and assuming that most owners will get on with them in OK fashion. Our anecdotes of "lifetime" parts from decades past are just that-history not likely to occur again soon. By most standards WI and Rohloff are probably more supportive of the tandem community than other component suppliers.
I don't like the fit of DTSwiss spokes in most non-DT hubs. They have messed with the shape of the elbow to facilitate the ease of machine building at the expense of longevity. Hub flange and spoke elbow failure seem too common in these combinations.
10000 miles is not the duty life we would like but it also is not insignificant on any bike but especially a tandem. Disc brakes put tremendous stresses on hubs the we didn't see with rim brakes. We don't have a lot of good current choices for any tandem duty components, particularly QR hubs and touring rims. Component manufacturers just don't see a market and too many tandem makers are using single bike parts and assuming that most owners will get on with them in OK fashion. Our anecdotes of "lifetime" parts from decades past are just that-history not likely to occur again soon. By most standards WI and Rohloff are probably more supportive of the tandem community than other component suppliers.
Flange failure is not THAT uncommon on tandems. They simply load the rear wheel to a degree single bikes don't see. That plus the torque loads means the hub is working triple duty! As someone who's gone through six rear mountain tandem hubs (freehub body & hubshell failure due to high torque), I can appreciate the stress rear hubs undergo.
I wouldn't push the warranty issue. You cannot expect a component to have an unlimited life on a tandem, especially one that's been toured on. It's unrealistic to expect this.
Light. Strong. Cheap. Pick two!
The bike industry is constantly trying to produce products that are durable, light and not overly expensive. In other words, they COULD make a lifetime product, but it would be either too heavy or expensive to be commercially viable. So we get stuff that's pretty darn good for most uses. But tandem touring often exceeds their parameters.
That said, I'd suggest the OP then go with triple butted spokes to optimize spoke interface at the flanges, and elasticity in the middle where it's needed. This will provide the best durability for the long run.
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I was most interested in:
1) getting a read on the expected life span of my hub for our weight, pannier weight, and the type of riding we do and then compare that to the amount of miles I got
2) explore what options exist for hubs/wheels that might be an improvement in reliability.
I am going to provide feedback to WI with details about how I used the hub, how long it lasted the second time, and pictures of the failure so that they will have another data point to consider for designing and manufacturing future hubs. Based on the replies I've gotten here and some scouring of the web, I'm pretty good with 21,000 miles for that hub.
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In 2019, we did two self guided tours in Europe. One was from Amsterdam down to the English Channel, across on the ferry, along the southern coast of UK, and then on up to London. The second one was from Paris to London. On those two tours we didn't have our panniers but I did make a tactical error. Previous tours we did in Europe were most, if not all, paved surface but these two tours make use of lots of dirt trails though forest, farmers fields, and the like. Before we left for these two tours I didn't verify the surfaces we would be riding on and just assumed that they would be paved - oopsie. We did both those tours with 28mm wide tires and I felt very fortunate to complete both tours with no flats. Live and learn. I have been more attentive to inquiring about what surfaces I'll be riding for tours taken since then and mounting the appropriate tires for the terrain.
We got our Cannondale new in March of 2012.
#20
Stevoo
That type of failure is not uncommon.
I have had similar hub breakage on Hadley front tandem hub.
My buddy on his rear Hadley tandem hub.
I did notice the replacement hubs have tiny bit taller flanges and stainless steel ends on the axle spacers. Will see how the new hubs hold up.
Data point(s). Buddys bike, early 2000's vintage wheelset, maybe 15,000 miles. Mine, little bit newer but much harder life and many, many more miles.
Is what it is.
I do inspect stuff like this now with a more serious eye than in years past.
Be safe and hope the OP gets good service from new hub.
I have had similar hub breakage on Hadley front tandem hub.
My buddy on his rear Hadley tandem hub.
I did notice the replacement hubs have tiny bit taller flanges and stainless steel ends on the axle spacers. Will see how the new hubs hold up.
Data point(s). Buddys bike, early 2000's vintage wheelset, maybe 15,000 miles. Mine, little bit newer but much harder life and many, many more miles.
Is what it is.
I do inspect stuff like this now with a more serious eye than in years past.
Be safe and hope the OP gets good service from new hub.