bikingshearer 

Remember that the first "Made in Japan" cycling product that got any high-end notice was the Shimano Crane RD. It hit the market in 1973 or shortly thereafter. Yes, Suntour RDs were available, but they way they priced and marketed, they weren't much used by folks wanting "high-end" stuff. (Not everyone was a Frank Berto-level iconoclast.) Remember that throughout the 1960s and into the early 1970s, "Made in Japan" was equated with "cheap junk" in the American buying public's mind, rightly or wrongly. It took some time to erase that general impression in general and in the high-end cycling world. Japanese components raised their high-end profile and reputation faster than Japanese framebuilders did. European and American high-end frames (whether as complete bikes or frame-only) sold more than did Japanese frames for quite a while, so it does not surprise me that there are fewer Japanese C&V frames available today.

repechage

I am not so sure about the when of Japanese industry being taken seriously.
Sony, Toyota, Datsun ( especially the 240z ) all had breakthroughs that turned the attitude.
the Sony trinitron TV, the Toyota Corolla and pickup… prior to Sony, TV’s were expected to require service.

what was lagging in the top tier Japanese product was geometry and lug design, the Nishiki Professional had a nice fork crown and round blades even but the lugs were a bit Klunky and the geometry was long, bottom bracket a bit high. Sizes were mid model level jumps. 19, 21,23, 25…
it took a while.
a decent bike with handling and value above its price was the Centurion that became The Ironman for one.
we did not see Fuji bikes out here on the Westcoast. Mid 1970’s pro bikes by Miyata and Panasonic won some acceptance, but not enough.

79pmooney

I raced a '76 Fuji Pro 1977 (last year's at discount) and gazed at the '77 Superbe equipped Pros in the window everyday at work in Boston's flagship Fuji shop. Yes, I and the guys racing on sponsor's Superbe Pros were racing production bikes with none of the Italian magic but we also knew we were riding bikes that were racing tools every bit as good as the Italian names (and with better shifting and brakes).

Insidious C. 

Reflecting on my first road bike purchase (very entry level 73 Steyr Clubman), I don't remember if my LBS even sold any Japanese bikes. My impressionable young mind was drawn to the Lejunes on display there. I was still just "a kid' and could not afford a good bike. I could have benefited from a cycling mentor back then.

In 73 I was also quite interested in photography, and purchased a Fujica ST-801 SLR camera. IIRC most SLRs at that time were Japanese made and well regarded.

mhespenheide 

I'd be happy to own a quality Japanese frame from the late 70's and up. But, as others have already pointed out, not that many were imported, so the supply isn't that large. And then beyond that, I'm tall and some of the Japanese manufacturers had frames that only got as long as 57cm in the top tube -- so a 58cm, 60cm, 62cm, and 64cm frame (by which I mean the seat tube measurement) all had 57cm top tubes. That doesn't work for me.

I got into the sport in '86 or '87 and by that point, Japanese manufacture didn't really hold any negative connotations. It wasn't appreciated at the level of De Rosa or Masi or Colnago and the like, but people knew that it could be better than a Schwinn.

himespau 

I'm not sure what it is about those pro and team miyatas in that blue and gold that draws me so, but it does. One day, I'll find one in my size (and find an excuse for why I need another bike that'll pass my wife).

Kontact

To a large extent, you can't have a brand that is simultaneously known for being a good value and for being premium. If it was premium, it would be priced as such - or so our thinking goes.

Just look at the different Trek pricepoints where nearly identical bikes were sold at different prices because of the tube supplier - despite the tubes being identical in dimension, construction and alloy (Columbus vs Ishwata).

I guess everyone's instinct is that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

BMC_Kid 

Same here, that bright blue especially is striking. I bet they were easily picked out in the pelotons in Europe back in the day.

1989Pre 

I've been looking for a metallic pink '82 Lotus Supreme, but not too many are available under $1,000

genejockey 

My Supreme is the ONLY Supreme I've seen on Ebay, Craigs List, or FB Marketplace in the last 3 years. The funny thing is, I saw a thread on here where someone had gotten a blue 1982 Supreme in primo condition, and it looked really cool. So I searched FB Marketplace for "Lotus Supreme", and what do I find? A blue 1982 Supreme in my size. Admittedly in somewhat rough shape, so I got it for what seemed pretty cheap.




I spent the next month or so getting a bunch of bits for it and getting it up to the condition you see in the post above.

It was weird that as soon as I started looking, it appeared, especially because I have not seen another one since!

madpogue 

I bought my Ricoh in '73; it was the most affordable SLR with a shutter that went to 1/1000 second. Bulletproof, optics were okay, Copal shutter was nuts-on accurate. Ricoh, Fuji (hmmm), Canon, Minolta, Yashica, Pentax and of course Nikon dominated the 35mm SLR market.

Chuckk

Off subject but maybe on are Japanese cameras.
Post-war the Japanese government saw an opportunity and a risk in exporting cameras, depending on quality and originality as the main selling points.
Those little tin foil stickers on older Japanese cameras were the JCII quality association.
Basically, if you joined the association, you promised to strive for quality. If you didn't join (I think Richo didn't) even if you did high quality product, you might find rare supplies and distribution difficult. (Richo did good work, just some companies were opposed to control).
Found this article with a quick search. https://mikeeckman.com/2020/03/kepplers-vault-58-jcii/

The Golden Boy 

For whatever it's worth, my father was Asian.

I just found out this year, before my father's funeral, that people that were well-meaning friends and neighbors of my maternal grandparents were apologizing to them for their daughter marrying an Asian.

Why didn't Japanese stuff have cachet? Because of ****ed up attitudes like that.

BMC_Kid 

No, it had very little to do with attitudes and more like history. European and American builders had many years and even generations of frame-building under their belt at the highest level of competition, more so the Europeans and especially the Italians. When we think of Asian builders, we are talking about the Japanese. Name one stage race in Japan that is on the same level as any of the big races in Europe. The old adage of race on Sunday, sell on Monday for cars played out to a smaller degree with bicycles. The Japanese frame builders were more focused on track, specifically Keirin racing until they started to penetrate the pelotons of European stage racing. The majority of people buying bikes were buying bikes that were similar to those for stage racing, not track. The influence of the Japanese builders really were specialized in something that the western buying public really had no interest in, and still generally don’t. Also, the main area of Japanese expertise lay in an area where the US and Europe again had many years of experience in as well, track or board racing. My grandfather in the early 1900s was a track cyclist in the Chicago area and there were tons of local builders back then. The Japanese really did not get started in bicycle racing until after the war ended and then only nationally, not international. It took decades for them to get a foothold in the west but one they did, they still really weren’t on the same level as the others and mainly were low to mid level for many years after. It wasn’t until the late 70s and early 80s that they really to started to send bikes of the same level or even better to the west but that period was short lived before the whole house of cards came tumbling down due to the valuation of the Dollar to the Yen.

The Golden Boy 

"Slant Paralellogram."

BMC_Kid 

.

Trakhak

Better still, the slant parallelogram.

I've noticed that whenever this topic comes up, the slant parallelogram gets cited. Why? Because it's the only truly superior original bike component design to come out of Japan in the '70's.

Suntour's slant parallelogram, while it was a game-changer - the other major derailleur manufacturers brought out their own versions as soon as Suntour's patent expired - turned out to be a bit of a fluke. I can't think of another '70's Suntour component that's as original a design as the slant parallelogram.

From the point of view of a guy who worked in bike shops in the 1970's, what I appreciated most about Suntour back then was the ability to order small parts for Superbe components that were cheaper and more readily available than the Campagnolo equivalents and were completely compatible with the Campy originals. Suntour had clearly reverse-engineered Campy's designs to make perfect copies. (I have a 1975 Ibanez double-neck guitar, made in Japan, that's a perfect copy of the Gibson original. Same deal.)

In the '80's, of course, the Japanese bike companies came into their own. It took Shimano a few tries (Pitch 10? Direction 6? Biopace?), but their teams of indefatigable engineers eventually came up with innovative designs that obliterated their old competitors in both Europe and Asia.

Hondo6

Not sure I'd agree totally with the bolded statement. If I recall correctly, Shimano's Uniglide and it's associated freehub came out in the late 1970s - though it took a while for it to become widely accepted.

It's true that Shimano didn't invent the freehub - Bayless-Wiley did that in the 1930s, but got nowhere with the idea. Shimano made it work, and work well.

RustyJames 

100% agree.

Velo Mule

It didn't take too long for that to change and for Japanese products to be the benchmark in each category. In the Schwinn dealership that I worked at in the early '80's, Fuji was our top line. No one bought a Paramount, Super Sport or Superior, but they did buy Fuji. We replaced Windsor with Lotus and they were well regarded. We had Panasonic and of course, the Schwinn LeTour made in Japan.

But these were far from high-end bikes. We didn't sell high end bikes. If you were in Long Island and wanted the high end stuff you went to Visenten. They sold mostly European bikes and components. In our value conscious neighborhood, Japanese bikes were highly desired. And Fuji's still get a premium oi the used market here in New York.

sd5782 

And I believe I read that Schwinn didn’t even catalog their first Japanese bike; the nice 1973 World Voyager. It seems they were unsure how it would go over.

Classtime 

A lot happened in the 70s and the 80s cannot compare regarding typical American "attitudes".

tkm

This was such a small segment of "why" that I'm not sure it even bears mention.

Once Japan started putting out quality product (not just bicycles), people started buying made in Japan goods in droves. In terms of bicycles, BMC_kid covered that history.

Remember that at one time Japanese-made goods were inferior to their made-in-USA/made-in-Europe product. That started to significantly change in the early 70's. Case in point: Motorcycles, Audio Equipment, etc.

BMC_Kid 

Exactly. This post started out questioning the reasoning for lack of desire for the higher end Japanese bikes from the 70s and 80s and it is generally not “Because of ****ed up attitudes”. It had more to do with the history and reputation of the mainly well established European builders and American builders at the time. They also had well established distribution that the Japanese didn’t until well into the bike boom during this period. And the rebuttal to what I laid out was met with “slant parallelogram” which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of Japanese builders.

Why the dearth of top-of-line Japanese C&V?Specifically I'm thinking about the larger, full range manufacturers like Fuji. There seems to be so few 70s Fuji Professionals for sale or being discussed on BF vs. Raleigh Professionals. Also Shogun (technically not Japanese but made in Japan)- it's impossible to find an example of their flagship model 3000. Lesser model Fujis and Shoguns seem relatively common. Were buyers of high end bikes in 70s/early 80s just not interested in Japanese made bikes? Share your thoughts please.

Classtime 

It took a long time for America to feel comfortable owning imported goods from their former adversaries regardless of the actual quality.