Lance Armstrong vs USPS Settlement
04-21-18, 11:01 PM
#127
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obviously Gunder did not raise his son right.
04-22-18, 10:13 AM
#128
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Armstrong wasn't just racing against his contemporaries-- he also was racing against champions of the past. Miguel Induráin, for example, only started winning Tours instead of just participating at the time EPO entered professional cycling in the early '90s
04-23-18, 02:31 AM
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Miguel Indurain had the good sense to keep his mouth shut and not bully people, though. When you tell Oprah "sorry, etc", that's when you know it doesn't really count.
04-23-18, 04:06 AM
#130
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@canklecat. Thats a good point above regarding the older athlete's more disciplined ability to endure discomfort, but wouldnt this ability alone conspire to help an older athlete achieve higher real world performance than he possibly would have 7-10 years earlier, when the vo2 max may genuinely have been a few points higher?
Interesting debate for sure.
I served in an elite branch of the military in my late teens and early to mid twenties, followed by a success in several 2 wheeled disciplines, motorized and non motorized when i got out, --- now in my mid forties, injuries have taken a toll and i frequently wake up stiff and with limited mobility
On the flip side is a good friend who was a stoner/slacker in his younger years and didnt start exercising until his late thirties. Now at 45, the guy clicks off enviable 5k times and is consistently near the top on his local strava gravel rides, --- while i am now content to walk on the treadmill and toodle along in the woods on my mountain bike at a relaxed pace
Different analogy to be sure, because neither one of us was ever at the top step of elite athletics, but i have seemingly burned a lot of matches on my way to 45 and have a quality of life to show for it, while this guy keeps getting better and better because he didnt beat himself down in his youth
Interesting debate for sure.
I served in an elite branch of the military in my late teens and early to mid twenties, followed by a success in several 2 wheeled disciplines, motorized and non motorized when i got out, --- now in my mid forties, injuries have taken a toll and i frequently wake up stiff and with limited mobility
On the flip side is a good friend who was a stoner/slacker in his younger years and didnt start exercising until his late thirties. Now at 45, the guy clicks off enviable 5k times and is consistently near the top on his local strava gravel rides, --- while i am now content to walk on the treadmill and toodle along in the woods on my mountain bike at a relaxed pace
Different analogy to be sure, because neither one of us was ever at the top step of elite athletics, but i have seemingly burned a lot of matches on my way to 45 and have a quality of life to show for it, while this guy keeps getting better and better because he didnt beat himself down in his youth
When I was a teen my max hr could go over 220 which I did not realize then was a big deal. My hr can't go that high now but my only real issue in my mid 40s is I am an overweight computer programmer. So if you weren't beat up you could probably do about as well as before even if not 100%.
04-23-18, 05:38 AM
#131
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Screw Lance Armstrong.
He may have had some talent. He may have charmed a number of you when he met you. You were being played. It was calculation. Because the other side of his personality had no problems whatsoever engaging in politics of personal destruction whenever it suited his ego and his bankbook.
Consider the former team-mates he steamrolled. Dave Zabriskie was told (in not uncertain terms) to dope or lose his slot on the USPS team. Frankie Andrieu's career instantly ended when he wouldn't "control" what Betsy would say to Federal judges. Tyler Hamilton was essentially told to STFU in Federal depositions or be visited in the middle of the night. Just like organized crime in North Jersey. Awful nice career you got here, be a shame if something happened to it.
Floyd Landis, snake that he is, found himself on the outs after the UCI "discovered" he was taking steroids (wonder who tipped them off?). He ended up in cycling's ghetto. Well, Landis can now buy all the beer and 420-snakeoil raw materials he wants, on Lance's dime.
Lance was even more of an ******* to those who knew too much. Greg LeMond is a perfect example - guy lost his bike business, lost his cred in the cycling world, everything - mainly because Lance was offended by what he'd said and decided to go medieval on his ass.
Did Betsy Andrieu deserve to have her sanity repeatedly questioned?
Did Emma O'Reilly deserve to be called a drunken ***** and to have her career ended?
How about Paul Kimmage? Guy just wanted to get doping out of cycling, and for that he gets a UCI defamation (SLAPP) suit and a personal shank to the chest by Lance in front of sporting press. David Walsh got the shank as well, facing the same lawsuits and publishers who were totally hostile to everything he wrote.
Travis Tygart at USADA faced personal attacks, the-process-is-the-punishment lawsuits and obstruction (coordinated) at every turn.
And for what? Was being Cancer Jesus really that important?
He may have had some talent. He may have charmed a number of you when he met you. You were being played. It was calculation. Because the other side of his personality had no problems whatsoever engaging in politics of personal destruction whenever it suited his ego and his bankbook.
Consider the former team-mates he steamrolled. Dave Zabriskie was told (in not uncertain terms) to dope or lose his slot on the USPS team. Frankie Andrieu's career instantly ended when he wouldn't "control" what Betsy would say to Federal judges. Tyler Hamilton was essentially told to STFU in Federal depositions or be visited in the middle of the night. Just like organized crime in North Jersey. Awful nice career you got here, be a shame if something happened to it.
Floyd Landis, snake that he is, found himself on the outs after the UCI "discovered" he was taking steroids (wonder who tipped them off?). He ended up in cycling's ghetto. Well, Landis can now buy all the beer and 420-snakeoil raw materials he wants, on Lance's dime.
Lance was even more of an ******* to those who knew too much. Greg LeMond is a perfect example - guy lost his bike business, lost his cred in the cycling world, everything - mainly because Lance was offended by what he'd said and decided to go medieval on his ass.
Did Betsy Andrieu deserve to have her sanity repeatedly questioned?
Did Emma O'Reilly deserve to be called a drunken ***** and to have her career ended?
How about Paul Kimmage? Guy just wanted to get doping out of cycling, and for that he gets a UCI defamation (SLAPP) suit and a personal shank to the chest by Lance in front of sporting press. David Walsh got the shank as well, facing the same lawsuits and publishers who were totally hostile to everything he wrote.
Travis Tygart at USADA faced personal attacks, the-process-is-the-punishment lawsuits and obstruction (coordinated) at every turn.
And for what? Was being Cancer Jesus really that important?
04-23-18, 10:09 AM
#132
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Aww, but I liked his cameo in Dodgeball. Tim
04-23-18, 11:41 AM
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Well if you were really in the delta force or somethign similar then you probably have about 200 minor injuries and half a dozen titanium bones. That is what happened to my brother and all the (living) guys he served with.
When I was a teen my max hr could go over 220 which I did not realize then was a big deal. My hr can't go that high now but my only real issue in my mid 40s is I am an overweight computer programmer. So if you weren't beat up you could probably do about as well as before even if not 100%.
When I was a teen my max hr could go over 220 which I did not realize then was a big deal. My hr can't go that high now but my only real issue in my mid 40s is I am an overweight computer programmer. So if you weren't beat up you could probably do about as well as before even if not 100%.
Naah, nothing even close to being that advanced for me. When I served, there was a gradual ladder of progression that you followed before you even got close to a SF or Delta type slot . Primarily search and rescue and attached to an aviation unit - (looked for downed pilots, procured helo landing fields for mede-vacs, things like that ) --- if the ladder to Delta was 8 rungs high, I would have been on rung 2
I never knew what my max was as a kid, --- (Heart rate training was just coming into vogue in the early 90's) , but in my mid to late 20's it was darn easy to crack 195, --- now if I hit 170 I feel like i'm going to die
Interestingly enough, I have a relatively physical job - lots of climbing ladders and climbing steep roofs for insurance inspections. When I started wearing a Garmin watch, I found that throughout the day for hours at a time I was in a zone 1/zone 2 workout area per the watch (115-125 bpm)
A coach in another discipline advised me that that is a reason I am having trouble shedding pounds -- when I get on a treadmill or ride the trainer and try to stay in the "fat burning zone 2" --- my body doesn't really register that as being any different than climbing a 2 story roof at my job
Bummer, as when I step it up to 140-145 bpm or so, it starts to feel too much like work
04-23-18, 12:35 PM
#134
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Screw Lance Armstrong.
He may have had some talent. He may have charmed a number of you when he met you. You were being played. It was calculation. Because the other side of his personality had no problems whatsoever engaging in politics of personal destruction whenever it suited his ego and his bankbook.
Consider the former team-mates he steamrolled. Dave Zabriskie was told (in not uncertain terms) to dope or lose his slot on the USPS team. Frankie Andrieu's career instantly ended when he wouldn't "control" what Betsy would say to Federal judges. Tyler Hamilton was essentially told to STFU in Federal depositions or be visited in the middle of the night. Just like organized crime in North Jersey. Awful nice career you got here, be a shame if something happened to it.
Floyd Landis, snake that he is, found himself on the outs after the UCI "discovered" he was taking steroids (wonder who tipped them off?). He ended up in cycling's ghetto. Well, Landis can now buy all the beer and 420-snakeoil raw materials he wants, on Lance's dime.
Lance was even more of an ******* to those who knew too much. Greg LeMond is a perfect example - guy lost his bike business, lost his cred in the cycling world, everything - mainly because Lance was offended by what he'd said and decided to go medieval on his ass.
Did Betsy Andrieu deserve to have her sanity repeatedly questioned?
Did Emma O'Reilly deserve to be called a drunken ***** and to have her career ended?
How about Paul Kimmage? Guy just wanted to get doping out of cycling, and for that he gets a UCI defamation (SLAPP) suit and a personal shank to the chest by Lance in front of sporting press. David Walsh got the shank as well, facing the same lawsuits and publishers who were totally hostile to everything he wrote.
Travis Tygart at USADA faced personal attacks, the-process-is-the-punishment lawsuits and obstruction (coordinated) at every turn.
And for what? Was being Cancer Jesus really that important?
He may have had some talent. He may have charmed a number of you when he met you. You were being played. It was calculation. Because the other side of his personality had no problems whatsoever engaging in politics of personal destruction whenever it suited his ego and his bankbook.
Consider the former team-mates he steamrolled. Dave Zabriskie was told (in not uncertain terms) to dope or lose his slot on the USPS team. Frankie Andrieu's career instantly ended when he wouldn't "control" what Betsy would say to Federal judges. Tyler Hamilton was essentially told to STFU in Federal depositions or be visited in the middle of the night. Just like organized crime in North Jersey. Awful nice career you got here, be a shame if something happened to it.
Floyd Landis, snake that he is, found himself on the outs after the UCI "discovered" he was taking steroids (wonder who tipped them off?). He ended up in cycling's ghetto. Well, Landis can now buy all the beer and 420-snakeoil raw materials he wants, on Lance's dime.
Lance was even more of an ******* to those who knew too much. Greg LeMond is a perfect example - guy lost his bike business, lost his cred in the cycling world, everything - mainly because Lance was offended by what he'd said and decided to go medieval on his ass.
Did Betsy Andrieu deserve to have her sanity repeatedly questioned?
Did Emma O'Reilly deserve to be called a drunken ***** and to have her career ended?
How about Paul Kimmage? Guy just wanted to get doping out of cycling, and for that he gets a UCI defamation (SLAPP) suit and a personal shank to the chest by Lance in front of sporting press. David Walsh got the shank as well, facing the same lawsuits and publishers who were totally hostile to everything he wrote.
Travis Tygart at USADA faced personal attacks, the-process-is-the-punishment lawsuits and obstruction (coordinated) at every turn.
And for what? Was being Cancer Jesus really that important?
+1 Nice job of laying out the case; memory is often all too short when it comes to these situations. Should we forgive LA? In all fairness: maybe. Someday. But not today... his behavior warranted the stripping of his 'champion' titles & stature.
-
Last edited by DIMcyclist; 04-23-18 at 12:38 PM.
04-23-18, 12:38 PM
#136
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Let see judging by his reported actions off the "playing field" Lance was a jerk,sociopath, narcissist, arrogant, egotistical. Hmmm, sounds like he should get into politics.
What I know is he was the most entertaining TDF winner ever, and never saw any of those things while watching the TDF. However the TDF is the extent of me watching cycling . I'm not interested what my favorite team does as long as they win. If I were to care about how every athlete behaved off their playing field I wouldn't have any favorite teams in any sport.
What I know is he was the most entertaining TDF winner ever, and never saw any of those things while watching the TDF. However the TDF is the extent of me watching cycling . I'm not interested what my favorite team does as long as they win. If I were to care about how every athlete behaved off their playing field I wouldn't have any favorite teams in any sport.
04-23-18, 12:42 PM
#137
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04-23-18, 12:55 PM
#138
No one cares
Athletes don't often make the best role models as we have learned many times.
Someone whose job it is to win at all costs probably isn't the best role model.
To me, Lance Armstrong is what he is, neither good or bad. Just a human. He's done some good things and he's done some bad. Granted, if I was at the receiving end of his bad i'd probably feel differently, but I can't project those things onto myself at this time.
As for the USPS, that's a large, often failing, government institution so I have a hard time identifying with their cause as well.
Someone whose job it is to win at all costs probably isn't the best role model.
To me, Lance Armstrong is what he is, neither good or bad. Just a human. He's done some good things and he's done some bad. Granted, if I was at the receiving end of his bad i'd probably feel differently, but I can't project those things onto myself at this time.
As for the USPS, that's a large, often failing, government institution so I have a hard time identifying with their cause as well.
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04-23-18, 01:37 PM
#140
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04-23-18, 01:48 PM
#142
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Try on a little brain cancer of your own, and then decide. Yes, Lance is a jerk, but his recovery from effectively zero chance of survival to even ride in the TDF is a medical miracle.
His ban should stand, just like Pete Rose. Lifetime ban, once he's dead, put him in the Hall.
But put in Joe Jackson first...
04-23-18, 02:57 PM
#144
Senior Member
That's not a pass. Really, they are unrelated ... or they would be had he not clubbed everyone over the head with it. "Don't pick on me, I had cancer..." "If you think I so much as double parked, you must love cancer."
Is there a chart that says what diseases give you license for what crimes and which thuggish behaviors?
Maybe Bernie Madoff had gout.
Maybe Bob Vesco had an ulcer.
Maybe that guy who did a dine-n-dash had a troublesome hangnail.
No. Just no.
Edit: Turns out Bob Vesco actually had cancer. Or maybe not. He was slippery.
Is there a chart that says what diseases give you license for what crimes and which thuggish behaviors?
Maybe Bernie Madoff had gout.
Maybe Bob Vesco had an ulcer.
Maybe that guy who did a dine-n-dash had a troublesome hangnail.
No. Just no.
Edit: Turns out Bob Vesco actually had cancer. Or maybe not. He was slippery.
Last edited by Mooo; 04-23-18 at 03:02 PM.
04-23-18, 03:06 PM
#145
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Get used to it?
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04-23-18, 03:09 PM
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A coach in another discipline advised me that that is a reason I am having trouble shedding pounds -- when I get on a treadmill or ride the trainer and try to stay in the "fat burning zone 2" --- my body doesn't really register that as being any different than climbing a 2 story roof at my job
Bummer, as when I step it up to 140-145 bpm or so, it starts to feel too much like work
Bummer, as when I step it up to 140-145 bpm or so, it starts to feel too much like work
04-23-18, 03:41 PM
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As like most everything, the battles of whom is right, wrong, cheat, liar, honest is only decided in the court. And then its all about how deep ones pocket is. The liar with the deepest pocket often win. Justice in America .... Lol
04-23-18, 03:49 PM
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What will we say when the day comes and the top cyclist is bio-mechanically superior vs. competitors?
Lets take it further and the 'bio-mechanical' champion decided to have the transformation done by choice?
Lets take it further and the 'bio-mechanical' champion decided to have the transformation done by choice?
04-23-18, 03:59 PM
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Try on a little brain cancer of your own, and then decide. Yes, Lance is a jerk, but his recovery from effectively zero chance of survival to even ride in the TDF is a medical miracle.
His ban should stand, just like Pete Rose. Lifetime ban, once he's dead, put him in the Hall.
But put in Joe Jackson first...
His ban should stand, just like Pete Rose. Lifetime ban, once he's dead, put him in the Hall.
But put in Joe Jackson first...
Armstrong, given his illness and comeback continued to 'blast' at Lemond. And of airing many personal matters of Greg's past.
I don't care what Armstrong had or has to battle with.
04-23-18, 04:01 PM
#150
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. I'm not interested what my favorite team does as long as they win. .