The Ah Ha moment with cycling shoes & pedals
08-26-22, 04:55 AM
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Let me start by saying I am a huge fan of clipless pedals. At any given time, I have about a half dozen bikes in my fleet, and two or three of them will have clipless. One has straps and cages, and a few are platforms. There are other differences in the bikes as well, to match what kind of riding I do with each, but my favorite bikes and the ones I rode the most usually have clipless. So that's what camp I'm in... but I won't criticize anyone who doesn't like them, for whatever reasons. You do you.
Every time this topic comes up on BF, there's the discussion about "pulling up." Some claim they do it, and say that's why they like clipless. Others will chime in with citations of very scientific studies showing that not only do riders not actually pull up, but if you were to do so you would gain very little, because of the physiology involved. I accept these refutations to the "pulling up" claim.
I will insist, however, that in some very specific riding situations, clipless pedals can provide a huge performance advantage. For interval training, I like to ride my fixed gear bike on rolling hills. The climbs are not long and not extremely steep, but just hard enough and long enough to make me really work and jack up my heart rate for ~30 seconds every two minutes or so. They're also short enough and gradual enough to make real rewards possible when I work hard, i.e., I can actually accelerate up the hill, and not be absolutely gassed by the time I reach the top.
I've been practicing a technique for these little climbs for years, and I think I'm pretty good at it. It's not some mysterious secret weapon, known to me exclusively. Millions of cyclists have discovered it. I stand up, get out front as far as possible (torso low and forward over the handlebar), and sprint as hard as I can. There is a conscious effort to apply force with each foot through the entire rotation of the crank. Maybe it can be proven that at best all I'm doing is unloading the pedals on the upward/forward part of the circle. I believe I'm exerting force. At any rate, being locked into the pedals gives me the control and security necessary to push out high wattage (both through high force and cadence) at a level I am certain I could not achieve on platform pedals. I am throwing the bike around and using all the major muscle groups in my body during these efforts. No study, anecdote, or calculation will convince me that my pedal choice doesn't make a big difference here.
Granted, this is a situation that many riders will never encounter, and even in my riding it does not arise often (way less than 1% of my time on bikes). It is still significant enough to help dictate my pedal choice. I don't mean to evangelize or try converting any anti-clipless riders. I'm just sharing one of the reasons I like them.
Every time this topic comes up on BF, there's the discussion about "pulling up." Some claim they do it, and say that's why they like clipless. Others will chime in with citations of very scientific studies showing that not only do riders not actually pull up, but if you were to do so you would gain very little, because of the physiology involved. I accept these refutations to the "pulling up" claim.
I will insist, however, that in some very specific riding situations, clipless pedals can provide a huge performance advantage. For interval training, I like to ride my fixed gear bike on rolling hills. The climbs are not long and not extremely steep, but just hard enough and long enough to make me really work and jack up my heart rate for ~30 seconds every two minutes or so. They're also short enough and gradual enough to make real rewards possible when I work hard, i.e., I can actually accelerate up the hill, and not be absolutely gassed by the time I reach the top.
I've been practicing a technique for these little climbs for years, and I think I'm pretty good at it. It's not some mysterious secret weapon, known to me exclusively. Millions of cyclists have discovered it. I stand up, get out front as far as possible (torso low and forward over the handlebar), and sprint as hard as I can. There is a conscious effort to apply force with each foot through the entire rotation of the crank. Maybe it can be proven that at best all I'm doing is unloading the pedals on the upward/forward part of the circle. I believe I'm exerting force. At any rate, being locked into the pedals gives me the control and security necessary to push out high wattage (both through high force and cadence) at a level I am certain I could not achieve on platform pedals. I am throwing the bike around and using all the major muscle groups in my body during these efforts. No study, anecdote, or calculation will convince me that my pedal choice doesn't make a big difference here.
Granted, this is a situation that many riders will never encounter, and even in my riding it does not arise often (way less than 1% of my time on bikes). It is still significant enough to help dictate my pedal choice. I don't mean to evangelize or try converting any anti-clipless riders. I'm just sharing one of the reasons I like them.
My sense of this is the "science" is so weak here, that if you think you're getting something out of clipless and you like riding on them, that's what you should do. There may or may not be a Hawthorne Effect operating here, but even if that's all that is happening, you're still getting a morale benefit.
Honestly, I think the relatively subtle advantages that clipless may or may not have really aren't testable in laboratory conditions, especially since people tend to be practiced on one or the other. So basically, ignore the "science" and go with your subjective sense of what works for you.
08-26-22, 05:10 AM
#77
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Nope.
A shoe with a sole that flexible enough to actually be like a trail running shoe would have terrible support under the cleat which would make them pretty lousy as a Clipless pedal shoe.
Ever ridden a set of clipless pedals with trail running shoes or sneakers? Very uncomfortable. Because that flexible sole does not distribute the weight. Slapping a cleat on it would not change that fact.
Yes, some clip-less shoes are reasonably. comfortable off the bike. But to say they are just like any other shoe or sneaker is silly. They simply lack the flexibility in the sole.
Flat pedals let you wear a shoe with a flexible sole under the ball of your foot, yet still have your foot be well supported on the pedal.
A shoe with a sole that flexible enough to actually be like a trail running shoe would have terrible support under the cleat which would make them pretty lousy as a Clipless pedal shoe.
Ever ridden a set of clipless pedals with trail running shoes or sneakers? Very uncomfortable. Because that flexible sole does not distribute the weight. Slapping a cleat on it would not change that fact.
Yes, some clip-less shoes are reasonably. comfortable off the bike. But to say they are just like any other shoe or sneaker is silly. They simply lack the flexibility in the sole.
Flat pedals let you wear a shoe with a flexible sole under the ball of your foot, yet still have your foot be well supported on the pedal.
But yes you are right, even the most flexible cycling shoes are still a bit more stiff. However this does not make them bad to walk in. People hike in hiking boots. Boots have stiff soles, no? Does that automatically make them bad for walking? So why do hiking boots exist?
Years ago when I was a dirty college student I spent almost two years with a pair of Shimano touring shoes as my only pair of shoes. You have people here championing platforms because it reduces shoes. Yes, I also reduced shoes, but I reduced the other way. If you haven't tried these shoes you should. They are absolutely 100% functional as standard walking shoes, all day long.
08-26-22, 05:14 AM
#78
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No it's not my concern, but this is bike forums, a discussion forum. And in case you haven't noticed, this is a thread about someone having a revelation about discovering the joy of clipless for the first time.
Having a bunch of luddites immediately barge into a thread like this is just annoying at best. Let the guy bask in his joy for just one day for God's sake holy f...
Bogey you made the right decision. Here we are in 2022 and people are looking at clipless like the Spanish conquistadors eating chili peppers for the first time holy smokes it's unbelievable.
Having a bunch of luddites immediately barge into a thread like this is just annoying at best. Let the guy bask in his joy for just one day for God's sake holy f...
Bogey you made the right decision. Here we are in 2022 and people are looking at clipless like the Spanish conquistadors eating chili peppers for the first time holy smokes it's unbelievable.
I always find this accusation of being a Luddite coming from people who ride long distances on human-powered vehicles funny. We're all Luddites to some degree. Some people said they don't use clipless, acting like that's some sort of declaration of war is really really dumb.
Hell, even the one guy who seems to want to make a moral stance over his choice not to use them had to acknowledge he was sacrificing safety using platforms on fixed gear.
BTW, OP seems ok with this, so maybe just relax, ok? I really don't appreciate being likened to an imperialist genocidal warrior freaking out at the local food.
08-26-22, 05:26 AM
#79
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yeah I’m good with it I was just having fun with you guys arguing.
honestly don’t care if people like my decisions or not, I was just happy whit how it worked for me. My whole point was to perhaps give the rookie viewpoint to other rookies who may be pondering on the dilemma I was looking at.
honestly don’t care if people like my decisions or not, I was just happy whit how it worked for me. My whole point was to perhaps give the rookie viewpoint to other rookies who may be pondering on the dilemma I was looking at.
I took your OP to be "try it, you'll like it.". You might be right, you might be wrong, but really you didn't post anything contentious. I also don't think people posting that they tried it and didn't like it or that they can't try it for some reason (my case) is really argumentative either.
I find the discussions about people's different attitudes towards technologies really interesting, that's why I get so annoyed with people trying to shut down one side of the conversation.
P.S. I think you'll be right for some people and wrong for others, but I'm all for people trying things out for themselves if they can. I'm happy to hear you've found pedals and shoes you enjoy.
08-26-22, 07:00 AM
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I took your OP to be "try it, you'll like it.". You might be right, you might be wrong, but really you didn't post anything contentious. I also don't think people posting that they tried it and didn't like it or that they can't try it for some reason (my case) is really argumentative either.
I find the discussions about people's different attitudes towards technologies really interesting, that's why I get so annoyed with people trying to shut down one side of the conversation.
P.S. I think you'll be right for some people and wrong for others, but I'm all for people trying things out for themselves if they can. I'm happy to hear you've found pedals and shoes you enjoy.
I find the discussions about people's different attitudes towards technologies really interesting, that's why I get so annoyed with people trying to shut down one side of the conversation.
P.S. I think you'll be right for some people and wrong for others, but I'm all for people trying things out for themselves if they can. I'm happy to hear you've found pedals and shoes you enjoy.
😂 for sure. Most forums are about the same.
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08-26-22, 07:03 AM
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As for the efficiency aspect. I think in constant speed flat riding there is no big difference between clipped in vs platforms. The real difference is when you are riding technical stuff or when you accelerate. The momentary extra force from being fully locked in can make a big difference..
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08-26-22, 07:14 AM
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To me, this is the sort of comparison that makes the conversation interesting. I don't do "technical stuff", so I have nothing to say about that, but compared to the other riders I encounter in various contexts (I do a lot of urban and rural road riding), my acceleration from a stop appears to be exceptionally high. Since I don't click in, what I do is a real stomp on one of the pedals that I couldn't do if my placement had to be precise and this really "kick starts" the acceleration. I'm quite sure you couldn't do this technique on a clipless pedal as your foot would probably just go off the pedal when you missed the click in. I realize some people are able to do track stands at red lights and such, but I've never actually seen anyone do this IRL.
08-26-22, 08:15 AM
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To me, this is the sort of comparison that makes the conversation interesting. I don't do "technical stuff", so I have nothing to say about that, but compared to the other riders I encounter in various contexts (I do a lot of urban and rural road riding), my acceleration from a stop appears to be exceptionally high. Since I don't click in, what I do is a real stomp on one of the pedals that I couldn't do if my placement had to be precise and this really "kick starts" the acceleration. I'm quite sure you couldn't do this technique on a clipless pedal as your foot would probably just go off the pedal when you missed the click in. I realize some people are able to do track stands at red lights and such, but I've never actually seen anyone do this IRL.
More generally, I agree with you (I think!) that this 'clipless or no' debate is pretty much pointless, even if fun. I don't use clipless for 'efficiency'; I use clipless pedals (SPD) because I like them; I simply like feeling connected in that way to the bike. Subjective preference. That's it; that's all I got!
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08-26-22, 08:38 AM
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Trail runners are not the same as sneakers. Trail runners have stiffer soles to protect your feet from being trashed by the uneven surface.
But yes you are right, even the most flexible cycling shoes are still a bit more stiff. However this does not make them bad to walk in. People hike in hiking boots. Boots have stiff soles, no? Does that automatically make them bad for walking? So why do hiking boots exist?
Years ago when I was a dirty college student I spent almost two years with a pair of Shimano touring shoes as my only pair of shoes. You have people here championing platforms because it reduces shoes. Yes, I also reduced shoes, but I reduced the other way. If you haven't tried these shoes you should. They are absolutely 100% functional as standard walking shoes, all day long.
But yes you are right, even the most flexible cycling shoes are still a bit more stiff. However this does not make them bad to walk in. People hike in hiking boots. Boots have stiff soles, no? Does that automatically make them bad for walking? So why do hiking boots exist?
Years ago when I was a dirty college student I spent almost two years with a pair of Shimano touring shoes as my only pair of shoes. You have people here championing platforms because it reduces shoes. Yes, I also reduced shoes, but I reduced the other way. If you haven't tried these shoes you should. They are absolutely 100% functional as standard walking shoes, all day long.
If you were OK clomping around in clipless shoes for two years, go for it. Seem silly to me unless I could only own one pair of shoes and I was serious about racing. I have not tried every pair out there, but enough to know that if they are stiff enough to be good clipless shoes, then they are not what I want to be walking around all day in. And conversely, if they are what I want to be walking around all day in, then they would not have enough support for clipless use, and I'd prefer good flat pedals by a looooongshot.
What got me back on flats after almost 20 years of clipless use was not the extra shoes, it was swapping the pedals. I started using my road/gravel bike more around town and commuting. I did not feel like swapping, a few times so I just did some road rides with the flats... and realized it was fine. All I was losing was some sprinting ability which I really don't care much about as I don't race.
Some people gain zero from using clipless, so it makes perfect sense not to have another set of specialty pedals and shoes.
Clipless and flats ride differently, some (like the op) clearly get a kick out of riding clipless. I get that. Sometimes I throw them back on my gravel/road bike just to change things up a little. But mostly I end up back on flats.
In my experience, it is best to ride both. Each teach you something different about pedaling, and I find that skills/technique from one tend to influence the other in a good way.
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08-26-22, 08:38 AM
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More generally, I agree with you (I think!) that this 'clipless or no' debate is pretty much pointless, even if fun. I don't use clipless for 'efficiency'; I use clipless pedals (SPD) because I like them; I simply like feeling connected in that way to the bike. Subjective preference. That's it; that's all I got!
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08-26-22, 08:53 AM
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Heh! Might as well quibble -- everyone else is! I don't see riding clipless as inherently disadvantageous at all in this specific regard: quick starts from stop in an urban setting -- in which context I do a lot of my riding. Don't know about anyone else, but I always leave one foot clipped in when stopped, typically my 'lead' foot, then push down hard when resuming. So as far as I can tell there's no delay at all. As far as the other pedal/foot is concerned, I use two-sided SPD and -- again as far as I can tell -- clipping that foot in once underway is pretty much instantaneous, at least for me. And, I'm old, decrepit, and inherently uncoordinated.
More generally, I agree with you (I think!) that this 'clipless or no' debate is pretty much pointless, even if fun. I don't use clipless for 'efficiency'; I use clipless pedals (SPD) because I like them; I simply like feeling connected in that way to the bike. Subjective preference. That's it; that's all I got!
More generally, I agree with you (I think!) that this 'clipless or no' debate is pretty much pointless, even if fun. I don't use clipless for 'efficiency'; I use clipless pedals (SPD) because I like them; I simply like feeling connected in that way to the bike. Subjective preference. That's it; that's all I got!
I don't think we're even disagreeing here--I didn't say there was a disadvantage, only that we do different things to take advantage of the characteristics of the machines we use. My personal move really involves a stomp from above the pedal which I really don't think could be safely done with clipless. What you're doing sounds pretty close to that, but I don't think you're getting the stomping motion I'm getting. I mention that I appear to be exceptionally good at accelerating because it heads off the usual "SPD is inherently better at accelerating from a stop as you can see when..." My observations don't match that.
As far as I'm concerned "I like them" is the best reason for using anything, and it has the advantage of never being wrong.
I looked over what I actually wrote, and I see how you thought I was saying there's an inherent advantage to platforms generally, which I didn't mean to imply. I do think the systems have characteristics that we will differ in finding advantageous or disadvantageous depending on our feet, how we ride and where we ride.
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08-26-22, 09:32 AM
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I don't think we're even disagreeing here--I didn't say there was a disadvantage, only that we do different things to take advantage of the characteristics of the machines we use. My personal move really involves a stomp from above the pedal which I really don't think could be safely done with clipless. What you're doing sounds pretty close to that, but I don't think you're getting the stomping motion I'm getting. I mention that I appear to be exceptionally good at accelerating because it heads off the usual "SPD is inherently better at accelerating from a stop as you can see when..." My observations don't match that.
As far as I'm concerned "I like them" is the best reason for using anything, and it has the advantage of never being wrong.
I looked over what I actually wrote, and I see how you thought I was saying there's an inherent advantage to platforms generally, which I didn't mean to imply. I do think the systems have characteristics that we will differ in finding advantageous or disadvantageous depending on our feet, how we ride and where we ride.
As far as I'm concerned "I like them" is the best reason for using anything, and it has the advantage of never being wrong.
I looked over what I actually wrote, and I see how you thought I was saying there's an inherent advantage to platforms generally, which I didn't mean to imply. I do think the systems have characteristics that we will differ in finding advantageous or disadvantageous depending on our feet, how we ride and where we ride.
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08-26-22, 09:32 AM
#89
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Trail running shoes - heck even most hiking shoes - are far way flexible than decent clipless shoes. Yes, more heavy weight hiking boots do have pretty stiff soles... but so what? Those are specialty footwear with a specific use, and most people don't even own them. And its not like clipless shoes can double as heavyweight hiking boots, anyway.
If you were OK clomping around in clipless shoes for two years, go for it. Seem silly to me unless I could only own one pair of shoes and I was serious about racing. I have not tried every pair out there, but enough to know that if they are stiff enough to be good clipless shoes, then they are not what I want to be walking around all day in. And conversely, if they are what I want to be walking around all day in, then they would not have enough support for clipless use, and I'd prefer good flat pedals by a looooongshot.
What got me back on flats after almost 20 years of clipless use was not the extra shoes, it was swapping the pedals. I started using my road/gravel bike more around town and commuting. I did not feel like swapping, a few times so I just did some road rides with the flats... and realized it was fine. All I was losing was some sprinting ability which I really don't care much about as I don't race.
Some people gain zero from using clipless, so it makes perfect sense not to have another set of specialty pedals and shoes.
Clipless and flats ride differently, some (like the op) clearly get a kick out of riding clipless. I get that. Sometimes I throw them back on my gravel/road bike just to change things up a little. But mostly I end up back on flats.
In my experience, it is best to ride both. Each teach you something different about pedaling, and I find that skills/technique from one tend to influence the other in a good way.
If you were OK clomping around in clipless shoes for two years, go for it. Seem silly to me unless I could only own one pair of shoes and I was serious about racing. I have not tried every pair out there, but enough to know that if they are stiff enough to be good clipless shoes, then they are not what I want to be walking around all day in. And conversely, if they are what I want to be walking around all day in, then they would not have enough support for clipless use, and I'd prefer good flat pedals by a looooongshot.
What got me back on flats after almost 20 years of clipless use was not the extra shoes, it was swapping the pedals. I started using my road/gravel bike more around town and commuting. I did not feel like swapping, a few times so I just did some road rides with the flats... and realized it was fine. All I was losing was some sprinting ability which I really don't care much about as I don't race.
Some people gain zero from using clipless, so it makes perfect sense not to have another set of specialty pedals and shoes.
Clipless and flats ride differently, some (like the op) clearly get a kick out of riding clipless. I get that. Sometimes I throw them back on my gravel/road bike just to change things up a little. But mostly I end up back on flats.
In my experience, it is best to ride both. Each teach you something different about pedaling, and I find that skills/technique from one tend to influence the other in a good way.
No, clipless shoes don't need to be extremely stiff to work as excellent bike shoes. They need to be stiff to a certain point. This "point" is no more stiff than many hiking boots. Hiking boots have stiff soles but are nevertheless designed specifically for walking. Ergo, if you follow the logic step by step, stiffness by itself is not necessarily an impediment to walking comfort. These shoes all have a rocker that complement the limited flex. See a demonstration here on the degree of flexibility. I rode across Asia twice on the exact shoes in this video, and its predecessor, so believe me, they work fine on the bike. No hot spots during 8-10 hours riding days, everyday continuously for months. Demonstration is at 5:22 in the video.
08-26-22, 11:44 AM
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Heh ... sort of missed that bit about 'stomping down' from above the pedal. If that's what you do ... agree that clipless of any kind likely wouldn't be terribly good for that motion. Not something I'd ever try -- clipless or flats. I'd miss the pedal and prolly break my neck during the ensuing comedy fall!
I've always been an outlier in terms of leg strength, so I sort of learned a bunch of stuff I don't see anyone else do. Really strong legs and really crappy feet and ankles, no wonder I love bikes, right?
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08-26-22, 11:54 AM
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08-26-22, 12:25 PM
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08-26-22, 12:27 PM
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08-26-22, 01:59 PM
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No, clipless shoes don't need to be extremely stiff to work as excellent bike shoes. They need to be stiff to a certain point. This "point" is no more stiff than many hiking boots. Hiking boots have stiff soles but are nevertheless designed specifically for walking. Ergo, if you follow the logic step by step, stiffness by itself is not necessarily an impediment to walking comfort.
For a bike which is meant to be practical, something I use to get around rather than just a racing / training / long ride machine, I want to wear a wide variety of shoes. On the beach or during the hottest days of summer I wear sandals; if I'm going to work it's going to be, well, it depends but probably some sort of shoe which fits the rest of what I'm wearing. Going for a drink in the evening I might want to put on something a bit classier. Hypothetically, if we had winter I would probably wear boots of some kind. Flat pedals work with any shoe and for a commuting bike, you lose... nothing. Whether I can do 1050W or 870W five second power is utterly irrelevant for my commute - I try to stay out of the red so I don't arrive as a soggy mess. If anything any advantage is offset by not having to clip in after every red light.
On the race bike, it matters and there's absolutely no downside at all to the shoe not being flexible or walkable.
Touring shoes seem to be very much niche - where you make a bit of a compromise on both walking and riding so you can get away with packing one less pair of shoes. It works for a certain kind of touring brilliantly, but otherwise I'm not seeing it.
Last edited by Branko D; 08-26-22 at 02:12 PM.
08-26-22, 02:52 PM
#95
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08-26-22, 03:52 PM
#96
In the wind
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08-26-22, 04:59 PM
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