New Winner question
03-09-23, 05:47 PM
#1
Wheelman
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New Winner question
Hiya Folks,
I've been investigating freewheels for 120mm OLD and SunTour New Winner seems a decent 6 speed option.
So I'm hoping to construct an Ultra 6 13-28 and I've seen the SunTour charts.
I've spotted a cheap "New Winner 7 speed" on Ebay which is 12-18+28+32.
Odd combination so it's cheap but 28+32 could be useful and I believe it must be using the thin Ultra spacers since it's 7 speed.
(Vendor will tell me exactly which gears it has tomorrow).
So are the following correct ?
I've been investigating freewheels for 120mm OLD and SunTour New Winner seems a decent 6 speed option.
So I'm hoping to construct an Ultra 6 13-28 and I've seen the SunTour charts.
I've spotted a cheap "New Winner 7 speed" on Ebay which is 12-18+28+32.
Odd combination so it's cheap but 28+32 could be useful and I believe it must be using the thin Ultra spacers since it's 7 speed.
(Vendor will tell me exactly which gears it has tomorrow).
So are the following correct ?
- New Winner body is the same for 6, Ultra 6, Ultra 7 builds so I can reuse the body
- First 2 cogs will need to be chucked and replaced by a 13T from a 6 speed (13S from ultra or non ultra)
- Spacers will probably be the correct set for an Ultra 6 (I know 15T needs a special UBV bevelled spacer).
03-09-23, 06:07 PM
#2
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03-09-23, 08:49 PM
#3
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You must keep in mind that the first five smallest sprockets on a New Winner are all threaded. The two largest ones have four splines or tabs.
1. Yes, you can build this New Winner into an Ultra spaced 6-speed.
2. Yes, you will need the specific 13T for an Ultra 6-speed.
3. In my experience, finding the correct spacers can sometimes be challenging, especially when trying to space the smallest sprockets.
1. Yes, you can build this New Winner into an Ultra spaced 6-speed.
2. Yes, you will need the specific 13T for an Ultra 6-speed.
3. In my experience, finding the correct spacers can sometimes be challenging, especially when trying to space the smallest sprockets.
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03-10-23, 01:19 AM
#4
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You must keep in mind that the first five smallest sprockets on a New Winner are all threaded. The two largest ones have four splines or tabs.
1. Yes, you can build this New Winner into an Ultra spaced 6-speed.
2. Yes, you will need the specific 13T for an Ultra 6-speed.
3. In my experience, finding the correct spacers can sometimes be challenging, especially when trying to space the smallest sprockets.
1. Yes, you can build this New Winner into an Ultra spaced 6-speed.
2. Yes, you will need the specific 13T for an Ultra 6-speed.
3. In my experience, finding the correct spacers can sometimes be challenging, especially when trying to space the smallest sprockets.
Yep, I was thinking this item could supply the spacers I need and the 28 (or possibly 32) cog and some of the medium cogs.
When the vendor gets back to me with axactly what's in the 12-18 range I can see from the SunTour charts if that includes all the spacers I need.
03-10-23, 06:49 AM
#5
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You could try something like 12-13-14-16-18-22-28, which would require only a single-cog change, and perhaps no spacer change (checking that last bit with the good pastor).
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
03-10-23, 07:04 AM
#6
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By inspection, we see a tooth progression pattern of 1-1-2-2, which implies 12-13-14-16-18, which would be a logical choice, and the start of a normal narrower range progression of something like 12-13-14-16-18-20-23 or 12-13-14-16-18-21-24.
You could try something like 12-13-14-16-18-22-28, which would require only a single-cog change, and perhaps no spacer change (checking that last bit with the good pastor).
You could try something like 12-13-14-16-18-22-28, which would require only a single-cog change, and perhaps no spacer change (checking that last bit with the good pastor).
I'm after a 120 OLD freewheel - so Ultra 6 speed, this item is more about getting the right (Ultra) spacers and a 28 or 32 cog.
I hope you're wrong because something like 13-15-17-20-24-28 would be better for me and the New Winner 15T cog has a special "UBV" spacer that's only used on the 15T.
All the other Ultra cogs use UFT or UTN (or UBD between the outer 2 splined cogs)
03-10-23, 07:10 AM
#7
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13-15-17-20-24-28 sounds great to me, like an improvement on the traditional 52-40 / 14-17-20-24-28 "alpine" or 1.5-step pattern we saw on a lot of 1970s bikes.
I use 13-15-17-19-22-25 or 13-15-17-20-23-26 with either a 3 (half-step) or an 8 (1.5-step) drop up front, e.g. 45-42 or 46-38.
Good luck with your project -- I love "gear phreaking."
I use 13-15-17-19-22-25 or 13-15-17-20-23-26 with either a 3 (half-step) or an 8 (1.5-step) drop up front, e.g. 45-42 or 46-38.
Good luck with your project -- I love "gear phreaking."
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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03-10-23, 07:20 AM
#8
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13-15-17-20-24-28 sounds great to me, like an improvement on the traditional 52-40 / 14-17-20-24-28 "alpine" or 1.5-step pattern we saw on a lot of 1970s bikes.
I use 13-15-17-19-22-25 or 13-15-17-20-23-26 with either a 3 (half-step) or an 8 (1.5-step) drop up front, e.g. 45-42 or 46-38.
Good luck with your project -- I love "gear phreaking."
I use 13-15-17-19-22-25 or 13-15-17-20-23-26 with either a 3 (half-step) or an 8 (1.5-step) drop up front, e.g. 45-42 or 46-38.
Good luck with your project -- I love "gear phreaking."
I'm currently running 13-15-17-19-21-24-28 + 52/42 because 52/42 is original to my Avanti and I can't fit smaller than 41 without changing the 52.
Got a new frame arriving in the next couple of days with 120 OLD (originally) so I'm thinking of 13-15-17-20-24-28 + 52/36,
which gives similar cruising gears but more help on the hills.
Here's a comparison https://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=...24,28&UF2=2125
Edit: And when I get really old I could swap in the 32.
Last edited by Aardwolf; 03-10-23 at 07:35 AM. Reason: spelling
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03-10-23, 07:27 AM
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That is some crazy cog choice going on with that freewheel...
Slight tangent- if you haven't already, check out this gear calculator. I've found it extremely helpful for sorting out the ideal gearing for my various bikes. Couple notes about it- if you click 'compare' in the lower right you can see two setups on the same page and, well, 'compare'. And if you want to bookmark and save a setup you have to click on 'link to the currently selected setup' at the bottom left first.
And is it weird that I find that Suntour freewheel chart super cool and kind of want to print a large one up just to hang on the wall as 'art'....?
Slight tangent- if you haven't already, check out this gear calculator. I've found it extremely helpful for sorting out the ideal gearing for my various bikes. Couple notes about it- if you click 'compare' in the lower right you can see two setups on the same page and, well, 'compare'. And if you want to bookmark and save a setup you have to click on 'link to the currently selected setup' at the bottom left first.
And is it weird that I find that Suntour freewheel chart super cool and kind of want to print a large one up just to hang on the wall as 'art'....?
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03-10-23, 07:38 AM
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That is some crazy cog choice going on with that freewheel...
Slight tangent- if you haven't already, check out this gear calculator. I've found it extremely helpful for sorting out the ideal gearing for my various bikes. Couple notes about it- if you click 'compare' in the lower right you can see two setups on the same page and, well, 'compare'. And if you want to bookmark and save a setup you have to click on 'link to the currently selected setup' at the bottom left first.
And is it weird that I find that Suntour freewheel chart super cool and kind of want to print a large one up just to hang on the wall as 'art'....?
Slight tangent- if you haven't already, check out this gear calculator. I've found it extremely helpful for sorting out the ideal gearing for my various bikes. Couple notes about it- if you click 'compare' in the lower right you can see two setups on the same page and, well, 'compare'. And if you want to bookmark and save a setup you have to click on 'link to the currently selected setup' at the bottom left first.
And is it weird that I find that Suntour freewheel chart super cool and kind of want to print a large one up just to hang on the wall as 'art'....?
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03-10-23, 07:56 AM
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Let me just add my two cents, especially since you have not yet made the purchase. Ultra spacing for a 6-speed is very straight forward on the Ultra sized Perfect and ProCompe bodies--- but only if you can live with a 14T as your smallest sprocket. The reason being is that you are only dealing with two threaded sprockets. The larger threaded sprockets in the New Winner family can be challenging to source.
Would you be interested in seeing what I can build? I realize shipping to Great Britain from the US can be costly, but we can see if we can make something work.
One more caution: I have experienced and communicated with others about this same issue. There are times when Ultra spacing will not cooperate with 120mm dropouts and a 120mm OLN hub. This is the case with my Hi-E wheelset on my '71 Schwinn Paramount.
Would you be interested in seeing what I can build? I realize shipping to Great Britain from the US can be costly, but we can see if we can make something work.
One more caution: I have experienced and communicated with others about this same issue. There are times when Ultra spacing will not cooperate with 120mm dropouts and a 120mm OLN hub. This is the case with my Hi-E wheelset on my '71 Schwinn Paramount.
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03-10-23, 08:12 AM
#12
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Let me just add my two cents, especially since you have not yet made the purchase. Ultra spacing for a 6-speed is very straight forward on the Ultra sized Perfect and ProCompe bodies--- but only if you can live with a 14T as your smallest sprocket. The reason being is that you are only dealing with two threaded sprockets. The larger threaded sprockets in the New Winner family can be challenging to source.
Would you be interested in seeing what I can build? I realize shipping to Great Britain from the US can be costly, but we can see if we can make something work.
One more caution: I have experienced and communicated with others about this same issue. There are times when Ultra spacing will not cooperate with 120mm dropouts and a 120mm OLN hub. This is the case with my Hi-E wheelset on my '71 Schwinn Paramount.
Would you be interested in seeing what I can build? I realize shipping to Great Britain from the US can be costly, but we can see if we can make something work.
One more caution: I have experienced and communicated with others about this same issue. There are times when Ultra spacing will not cooperate with 120mm dropouts and a 120mm OLN hub. This is the case with my Hi-E wheelset on my '71 Schwinn Paramount.
I got some Mavic Monthlery Pro rims a while back that came with a free Sunrace 5 speed 14-28 so I'm still very much playing with the options but I have a backup.
It just seems that New Winner (or similar) is something I should get working at some point.
I'm expecting the 'new' frame to arrive today or tomorrow so I will know more then - 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone - which is probably 120mm OLD but I haven't measured it yet.
Edit: Forgot to mention I'll be knitting the wheel myself so if the dishing needs adjusting for a New Winner that's not an issue.
Last edited by Aardwolf; 03-10-23 at 08:22 AM. Reason: Knitting
03-10-23, 08:30 AM
#13
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Oh no, is this thread now going to turn into a heated debate about the pros and cons of 'knitting' a wheel vs 'lacing' a wheel, and how one method is much stronger and more durable and the other leads to certain death? 
(I'm picturing an English granny sitting in her front room with a pot of tea, building up wheels while watching Are You Being Served on the telly...)
(I'm picturing an English granny sitting in her front room with a pot of tea, building up wheels while watching Are You Being Served on the telly...)
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03-10-23, 08:58 AM
#14
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Definitely not
The frame just turned up and I'm going to have to have a rethink - OLD is 114 which is very strange, I may even consider spreading it.
Here's a 1961 Holdsworth catalogue entry for "Hurricane Golden Cycle" which mentions "10 speed models" which should be 120 OLD from those days
The frame just turned up and I'm going to have to have a rethink - OLD is 114 which is very strange, I may even consider spreading it.
Here's a 1961 Holdsworth catalogue entry for "Hurricane Golden Cycle" which mentions "10 speed models" which should be 120 OLD from those days
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03-10-23, 06:00 PM
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Definitely not
The frame just turned up and I'm going to have to have a rethink - OLD is 114 which is very strange, I may even consider spreading it.
Here's a 1961 Holdsworth catalogue entry for "Hurricane Golden Cycle" which mentions "10 speed models" which should be 120 OLD from those days
The frame just turned up and I'm going to have to have a rethink - OLD is 114 which is very strange, I may even consider spreading it.
Here's a 1961 Holdsworth catalogue entry for "Hurricane Golden Cycle" which mentions "10 speed models" which should be 120 OLD from those days
03-13-23, 04:52 AM
#16
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Rats, he finally got back to me:12-13-14-16-18-28-32
From the SunTour diagram that is
U12 | L13 | P14 | no spacer | R16 | UFT | R18 | UTN | A28 | UBD | A32
and I need UBV + UFT + UTN + UDB so I would also need to buy an Ultra with the 15 cog.
From the SunTour diagram that is
U12 | L13 | P14 | no spacer | R16 | UFT | R18 | UTN | A28 | UBD | A32
and I need UBV + UFT + UTN + UDB so I would also need to buy an Ultra with the 15 cog.
03-13-23, 05:03 AM
#17
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A follow up question - how can you tell the difference between Ultra and standard from an advert picture.
I would guess you can see how much the body extends past the cogs, but I don't know which is which for a 6 speed.
So for example is this Ultra or standard ?
The "Patent NWN" shows it's a New Winner I believe.
I would guess you can see how much the body extends past the cogs, but I don't know which is which for a 6 speed.
So for example is this Ultra or standard ?
The "Patent NWN" shows it's a New Winner I believe.
03-13-23, 06:45 AM
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A follow up question - how can you tell the difference between Ultra and standard from an advert picture.
I would guess you can see how much the body extends past the cogs, but I don't know which is which for a 6 speed.
So for example is this Ultra or standard ?
The "Patent NWN" shows it's a New Winner I believe.
I would guess you can see how much the body extends past the cogs, but I don't know which is which for a 6 speed.
So for example is this Ultra or standard ?
The "Patent NWN" shows it's a New Winner I believe.
The standard spaced 6 speed uses the weird cogs that have threading for another cog to the right (the "X" type cog), which extends beyond the body.... as shown in the drawing below:
Steve in Peoria
(don't think I've seen a standard spaced six speed lately)
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03-13-23, 06:48 AM
#19
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Doh, sometimes I'm as dumb as a box of frogs.
I've already used the Ultra 6 and 7 table in that diagram to work out what spacers I need,
didn't think to read the standard 6 table.
I've already used the Ultra 6 and 7 table in that diagram to work out what spacers I need,
didn't think to read the standard 6 table.
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03-13-23, 07:24 AM
#20
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This is why I prefer the Perfect/ProCompe Ultra spaced bodies for a 6-speed build for 120mm spacing. There are no odd-ball, specifically unique, sprockets needed. Just the correct spacers and shims.
@Aardwolf, you really know how to picture some dirty New Winners which are begging for trips to the Spa!
@Aardwolf, you really know how to picture some dirty New Winners which are begging for trips to the Spa!
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03-13-23, 07:36 AM
#21
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This is why I prefer the Perfect/ProCompe Ultra spaced bodies for a 6-speed build for 120mm spacing. There are no odd-ball, specifically unique, sprockets needed. Just the correct spacers and shims.
@Aardwolf, you really know how to picture some dirty New Winners which are begging for trips to the Spa!
@Aardwolf, you really know how to picture some dirty New Winners which are begging for trips to the Spa!
And I've now fitted a Sunshine large flange 120mm hub to my "114" mm dropouts, it went in quite easily so this might all work.
Are Perfect/ProCompe the same overall width as New Winner for 6 speed/120mm fitting ?
03-13-23, 08:13 AM
#22
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However, let me caution again, sometimes a 6-speed Ultra works on a 120mm hub, and sometimes it doesn't.
Over the weekend, I attempted to fit an Ultra spaced 6-speed Perfect on a Campagnolo Record hub (120mm) and install on my '71 Paramount, and it was a no-go. Be prepared for the possibility of disappointment.
If you want to fit a 5-speed freewheel on your Sunshine hub and measure the left-over distance from the top of the freewheel to the top of the nut, I can provide the difference for an Ultra spaced New Winner. Also measure the thickness or stack height of the 5-speed freewheel.
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Bob
Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
03-13-23, 10:13 AM
#23
Wheelman
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Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Putney, London UK
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Bikes: 1982 Holdsworth Avanti (531), 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone
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A lot of these things you just have to try it and see if it works.
I've bid on the 6 speed, turns out it's 13-14-15-18-21-24 so if it fits it would be usable anyway.
And if I want to go wider later I've got the 15 cog and its spacer.
I've bid on the 6 speed, turns out it's 13-14-15-18-21-24 so if it fits it would be usable anyway.
And if I want to go wider later I've got the 15 cog and its spacer.
03-21-23, 04:37 AM
#24
Wheelman
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Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Putney, London UK
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Bikes: 1982 Holdsworth Avanti (531), 1961 Holdsworth Cyclone
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Yay, it arrived and it's Ultra 6 speed New Winner (for £10).
I've even done some measurements:
Sunrace 5 speed 14-28
I did try taking it apart but it broke my chipboard freewheel vice so I gave up for the moment.
I've even done some measurements:
Sunrace 5 speed 14-28
Hub step - right of small cog 26.05
Hub step - right of FW 29.55
SunTour New Winner 6 speed 13-24Hub step - right of FW 29.55
Hub step - right of small cog 26.45
Hub step - right of FW 29.09
And it fits in the dropouts, chain stay is a bit tight but I think it's workable.Hub step - right of FW 29.09
I did try taking it apart but it broke my chipboard freewheel vice so I gave up for the moment.
03-21-23, 05:18 AM
#25
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
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The first step is penetrating oil and giving it time to work.
The next step is more penetrating oil.
The next step, so far for me, has been to put it in a box for a few years until I really need it.
A better mechanic than me might try some percussive maintenance, or maybe the heat wrench?
Steve in Peoria
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