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Custom 12-28 cassette

Old 04-27-15, 01:27 PM
  #1  
scarleton
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Custom 12-28 cassette

I want a 12-28 cassette that has this gearing:

12,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,32,25,28

The standard Shimano CS-5800 is a 11-28, it lacks the 16T. Is it possible to simply remove the 11T from the stock 11-28 and add the 16T that is in my current 11-32? I have noticed that the smallest cog is different, so it might also require the 12T from the 12-25, is it possible for me to order just that cog?

One more thought, I don't use the 11/12 unless I am going downhill, maybe I could swap the 12 for the 16, so it is a:

11,13,14,15,16,17,19,21,32,25,28

Is what I am talking about achievable or is there also an issue of how exactly each gear matches with the next which would cause me problems?
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Old 04-27-15, 01:51 PM
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You can do almost exactly what you describe.

Except for Miche, individual cogs are generally not available. For my custom cassettes, I purchase stock Shimano units and take them apart, they are pretty inexpensive.

That 32 between the 21 and 25 will mess things up

Components - Drive Train - Cogs - 11 Speed - Niagara Cycle

There is more stuff available in 8, 9 and 10 speed to do custom cassettes.
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Old 04-27-15, 02:00 PM
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You can buy the 12T starting cog individually: Universal Cycles -- Shimano 11sp Dura-Ace/Ultegra Cogs

I would make sure that you can disassemble the cassette before ordering anything though.
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Old 04-27-15, 02:07 PM
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Here are all of your part numbers:
https://media.canyon.com/download/manuals/CS-5800.pdf

Loose sprockets often show up on E-Bay, or your LBS should be able to source them.

Both 10s and 11s cassettes use 1.6mm sprockets.

With 9s, I believe the 12T, first position and second position sprockets were the same. That isn't the case for 11s.

Your biggest problem is that the shift gates won't line up properly. That may lead to imprecise shifting, especially when shifting under high power conditions.
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Old 04-27-15, 02:13 PM
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Some cassettes are made up of loose cogs, riveted together. The rivets serve no functional purpose, besides keeping the cassette together when it's off the hub. You can drill out the rivets, disassemble, and reassemble to your heart's content.

Some cassettes have a couple loose cogs (usually the smallest few) and the rest of the cogs are mounted on a spider. This kind of cassette can't be disassembled.

Look at photos and ensure that the cassettes you want to re-arrange are the first type, not the second type with a spider.

Shimano's Hyperglide cassettes (and their imitators) use sculpted teeth to create shift points on the cassette to encourage the chain to move between cogs more easily. That way their lazy indexed shifters don't have to be perfectly aligned and they'll still shift ok. These shift points may get mis-aligned when you move cogs around, but it shouldn't have that much impact.
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Old 04-27-15, 03:12 PM
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Shimano cogs are indexed by one inner spline that is wider than the others, so the shift points should not be a problem...
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Old 04-27-15, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rmfnla View Post
Shimano cogs are indexed by one inner spline that is wider than the others, so the shift points should not be a problem...
Not quite true.

If you have a cassette that is designed
15-17-19

So the shift points are in line.

Then you add an additional cog.

15-16-17-19

Then your shift points no longer line up.

Look at the parts diagram that I linked to above.

They have the gearing combos:
11...14-15-17...28
12...14-15-16-17... 25

They use the same 15T sprocket for the 11-28 and the 12-25
HOWEVER, different 17T sprocket for those two cassettes.

That would make one think that the 17T sprocket for the 14-15-17 combination would be different than the 17T for the 14-15-16-17 combination.

And, you can't just push the problem down the line like "kick the can".

Oh...
One thing to note, for the Dura Ace, CS-9000, there is a 12-28 cassette. It would be worth considering before making a Franken-Cassette. A bit expensive, so it is worthwhile to shop around.
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Old 04-27-15, 04:22 PM
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I'm tempted to be grumpy about how few cassette combinations they offer in 11-speed, but those three combos do cover a lot of ground. After they add a few more sprockets, we'll all be on 11-32s, whether we want to or not.
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Old 04-27-15, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
I'm tempted to be grumpy about how few cassette combinations they offer in 11-speed, but those three combos do cover a lot of ground.
Hmmm... for Shimano, the last time I looked:

11-23 (Ultegra, DA)
11-25 (Ultegra, DA)
11-28 (105, Ultegra, DA)
11-32 (105, Ultegra)
12-25 (105, Ultegra, DA)
12-28 (DA)
11-40 (XTR)

So, that is 7 different gearing combos just for Shimano, not counting other brands. They just don't offer them all in all price levels.

Ok, add to that:
11-25 SRAM PG1170, 1190
11-26 SRAM PG1130, 1170, 1190
11-28 SRAM PG1130, 1170, 1190
11-30 SRAM 1190
11-32 SRAM PG1130, 1170, 1190
11-36 SRAM PG1130, 1170
10-42 SRAM XG1150, XG1175, XG1180, XG1195, XG1199

Another option is to adjust one's chainrings to match the gearing choices. So, use a 11T cassette with a smaller chainring. I.E. You don't need a 12T XTR cassette if one uses a dinky crankset.

Edit:
Also found BBB-BCS 11S cassettes (And 11C for Campy).
11/12/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/21/23
12/13/14/15/16/17/18/19/21/23/25
12/13/14/15/16/17/19/21/23/25/27
13/14/15/16/17/18/19/20/21/23/25
14/15/16/17/18/19/20/21/23/25/27
16/17/18/19/20/21/22/23/24/25/27
18/19/20/21/22/23/24/25/26/27/28

Last edited by CliffordK; 04-27-15 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 04-27-15, 04:38 PM
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I mix and match cassette cogs, but when you remove the rivets the freehub will get notched if it's aluminum. I use Shimano 756 hubs, the freehub is steel so no worries. Michle cogs work well for me.
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Old 04-27-15, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Hmmm... for Shimano, the last time I looked:

11-23 (Ultegra, DA)
11-25 (Ultegra, DA)
11-28 (105, Ultegra, DA)
11-32 (105, Ultegra)
12-25 (105, Ultegra, DA)
12-28 (DA)
11-40 (XTR)

So, that is 7 different gearing combos just for Shimano, not counting other brands. They just don't offer them all in all price levels.

Ok, add to that:
11-25 SRAM PG1170, 1190
11-26 SRAM PG1130, 1170, 1190
11-28 SRAM PG1130, 1170, 1190
11-30 SRAM 1190
11-32 SRAM PG1130, 1170, 1190
11-36 SRAM PG1130, 1170
10-42 SRAM XG1150, XG1175, XG1180, XG1195, XG1199

Another option is to adjust one's chainrings to match the gearing choices. So, use a 11T cassette with a smaller chainring. I.E. You don't need a 12T XTR cassette if one uses a dinky crankset.
I had a feeling I was missing something!

No stranger to mixing and matching chainrings to get the gearing I like, either, but I just can't get enthusiastic about the move to 11-X cassettes. It takes a fairly dinky chainring to bring that top gear down to something remotely usable by me (and so make use of the whole cassette), and 11T cogs are hard on the chain. Oh well.
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Old 04-27-15, 06:08 PM
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One of the issues is as one adds sprockets, where is the best place to put them. A 1T difference from 11T to 12T is almost the same as a 3T difference from 30T to 33T, becoming more complex to get the right derailleur size and chain wrap.

With the 10s CS-6600, Shimano had very different gearing choices, many of which were dropped with the move to the 10s 6700.

10s CS-6600:

11-23
12-23
12-25
12-27
13-25
14-25
15-25
16-28

WHEW!!!

And, several other 12T options with the CS-6700, CS-7700, CS-7800, and CS-7900, from 12-21 to 12-30.
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Old 04-27-15, 06:40 PM
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Campagnolo had different cog orientations for the same tooth cog on different cassette sizes. For instance, the 19 cog might be a "19A" on a 12-25 10-speed cassette, or a "19B" on a 13-29. The teeth were lined up differently. It was designed to shift cleanly from the cogs on each side. But that could only work best on part of the circumference--the teeth can't line up all the way around. So inserting your new 16 cog might work reasonably well, even though it doesn't follow the exact orientation.

I really liked my Campagnolo 13-29 10-speed cassette. It was 13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23,26,29. Campagnolo makes the same thing in 11-speed, 12-29.

You could perhaps swap the freehub to Campagnolo, since the 11-speed cassettes are the same spacing on Shimano and Campagnolo, and will work with either derailleur. The 11-speed Campagnolo cassettes are kind of expensive, though, close to Dura-ace prices.

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Old 04-27-15, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
........

That would make one think that the 17T sprocket for the 14-15-17 combination would be different than the 17T for the 14-15-16-17 combination.

........
On 9s and less, Shimano has different cogs for the number of teeth less the neighboring cog has; for example, in the case of a 17T cog, there would be a version for being next to a 16T cog, another for being next to a 15T, and possibly one for being next to a 14T. Only the immediate smaller cog neighbor mattered.

That said, even if there was a mis-match, they still shift faster and smoother than non-Hyperglide cogs.
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Old 04-27-15, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post
I really liked my Campagnolo 13-29 10-speed cassette. It was 13,14,15,16,17,19,21,23,26,29. Campagnolo makes the same thing in 11-speed, 12-29.
+100 and if you buy the Veloce level they are very reasonably priced too. My favorite Shimano 10-speed cassette is the 12x27 and at the 105 level is also pretty low cost.

For road bike use with a typical 52 or 50T big chainring, I have little use for a 12T cog and none at all for an 11T so I wish there were more 12xXX or even 13xXX cassettes. For most riders an 11T cog only makes sense for MTB use with their very small "big" chainring.
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Old 04-27-15, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Oh...
One thing to note, for the Dura Ace, CS-9000, there is a 12-28 cassette. It would be worth considering before making a Franken-Cassette. A bit expensive, so it is worthwhile to shop around.
I am the OP, that is a GREAT find! I agree, it is expensive, but it is also the right cassette! When I get the $155 I think that is the route I will take!
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Old 04-27-15, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by scarleton View Post
I am the OP, that is a GREAT find! I agree, it is expensive, but it is also the right cassette! When I get the $155 I think that is the route I will take!
Ribble has it for $145.
Shimano 11 Speed Dura Ace 9000 Cassette, Cassettes, CASSETTES

I also found the BBB BCS-11S for about $70 from Ribble. I'm adding BBB to my list above.
12/13/14/15/16/17/19/21/23/25/27
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Old 04-28-15, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Not quite true.

If you have a cassette that is designed
15-17-19

So the shift points are in line.

Then you add an additional cog.

15-16-17-19

Then your shift points no longer line up.

Look at the parts diagram that I linked to above.

They have the gearing combos:
11...14-15-17...28
12...14-15-16-17... 25

They use the same 15T sprocket for the 11-28 and the 12-25
HOWEVER, different 17T sprocket for those two cassettes.

That would make one think that the 17T sprocket for the 14-15-17 combination would be different than the 17T for the 14-15-16-17 combination.

And, you can't just push the problem down the line like "kick the can".

Oh...
One thing to note, for the Dura Ace, CS-9000, there is a 12-28 cassette. It would be worth considering before making a Franken-Cassette. A bit expensive, so it is worthwhile to shop around.
So you are saying Shimano makes same-sized cogs with varying shift points depending on the combination it will be used on?

That doesn't make sense; I would think they all line up so they can grab whatever they want when assembling the cassette.

FWIW, I also have assembled numerous Franken-sets and have yet to have a shifting problem...
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Old 04-28-15, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rmfnla View Post
So you are saying Shimano makes same-sized cogs with varying shift points depending on the combination it will be used on?

That doesn't make sense; I would think they all line up so they can grab whatever they want when assembling the cassette.
Ever since the advent of Hyperglide, Shimano has made variants of most cogs in order to line up the shift gates optimally with the neighboring cogs. An example from the 7-speed world: a 14T cog from a 12-28T "E" cassette will not be the same as the 14T from a 13-23T "I" cassette. They are stamped with the cassette codes they are intended for, in order to prevent mix-ups at the factory. That's the truth, whether you believe it or not! Sheldon Brown compiled charts showing the shared (and differing) cogs between cassettes: Shimano and Shimano-compatible 7-speed cassettes

FWIW, I also have assembled numerous Franken-sets and have yet to have a shifting problem...
Yep! There's no reason that a mix-and-matched cassette shouldn't work, but the shifting will be a little smoother between cogs meant to be neighbors.
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Old 04-28-15, 04:43 PM
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Re "smoother shifting" or "under load", I've often wondered how shifting is in regular riding with proper letting up of pressure when shifting. For touring I've often thought of ideal cassettes that start at 13 let's say but give a more useful couple of closer matched cogs in the range of speeds we often are in touring. The 9 speed 11-32 is a good example where I'd be very happy to drop the 11 and maybe even the 12 to get a couple of often used cogs in the middle ish but still having the 32.

Guess the only way to really know would be to try it, as one persons rough shifting might be fine for someone else.
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Old 04-28-15, 06:43 PM
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Shortish answer for the OP:

get a 5800 11-32 cassette (I got one for $35 from a British site)
get a 10 speed 12-25 or similar with a 16t cog
take off 11t and 12t from the 5800.
put on the lock ring, 12t, and 16t from the 10 speed cassette.
use the 5800 spacers, not the 10 speed spacers, between the cogs
now you have your dream cassette

there may be a minimal difference btwn the overall width of the 5800 11t and the 10speed 12t, as the spacer is build into the smallest cog. a little fine tuning should have it shifting fine.
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Old 04-28-15, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
Re "smoother shifting" or "under load", I've often wondered how shifting is in regular riding with proper letting up of pressure when shifting. For touring I've often thought of ideal cassettes that start at 13 let's say but give a more useful couple of closer matched cogs in the range of speeds we often are in touring. The 9 speed 11-32 is a good example where I'd be very happy to drop the 11 and maybe even the 12 to get a couple of often used cogs in the middle ish but still having the 32.

Guess the only way to really know would be to try it, as one persons rough shifting might be fine for someone else.
Sheldon approved of the shifting performance of franken-cassettes.

Don't forget, back in the day all of our rear cogs were straight cut... and we managed our shifts just fine.

Better to have the gear ratios that work best for you, than to worry about "ultimate" shifting performance.
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Old 04-28-15, 09:07 PM
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That's pretty much what I figured, and yes I too grew up shifting straight cut gears and friction, not to mention clutch less upshifts when racing motorcycles with never any harm to transmissions, so it's more of actually taking the time to actually do this. Thought of this for a while but never got around to it......
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Old 04-28-15, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
Re "smoother shifting" or "under load", I've often wondered how shifting is in regular riding with proper letting up of pressure when shifting. For touring I've often thought of ideal cassettes that start at 13 let's say but give a more useful couple of closer matched cogs in the range of speeds we often are in touring. The 9 speed 11-32 is a good example where I'd be very happy to drop the 11 and maybe even the 12 to get a couple of often used cogs in the middle ish but still having the 32.

Guess the only way to really know would be to try it, as one persons rough shifting might be fine for someone else.
One could carefully grind off the short notch off of the cassette... and then turn each sprocket any which way.

Most of my bikes still use friction shifters... I've gotten up to 9 spd, which seems to shift smoother than the old 5 speed clusters. I've ridden a couple of 5x2 bikes lately, and they just seem a bit crunchy with the shifting.

My one indexed brifter system (also 9 spd) just seems pretty touchy. I do think it would do a lot better with a very tight B-Screw adjustment, which all depends on the cassette/derailleur match.

When everything is working right, one can smoothly shift without any slippage.
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Old 04-29-15, 11:31 AM
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rmfnla
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Ever since the advent of Hyperglide, Shimano has made variants of most cogs in order to line up the shift gates optimally with the neighboring cogs. An example from the 7-speed world: a 14T cog from a 12-28T "E" cassette will not be the same as the 14T from a 13-23T "I" cassette. They are stamped with the cassette codes they are intended for, in order to prevent mix-ups at the factory. That's the truth, whether you believe it or not! Sheldon Brown compiled charts showing the shared (and differing) cogs between cassettes: Shimano and Shimano-compatible 7-speed cassettes


Yep! There's no reason that a mix-and-matched cassette shouldn't work, but the shifting will be a little smoother between cogs meant to be neighbors.

Good info... thanks!
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