ljwoodw

Hey everyone,

I'm pretty new to Bike Forums, but I definitely like what I see so far. There must be thousands of users here.

I'm a graduate student in City Planning and Transportation Engineering (and a daily bicycle commuter), and I'm working on a project dealing with bicycle/bus conflicts. In particular, we're looking for innovative treatments for bus stops (especially where a designated bus/bike lane is not feasible), since bicycles and buses often have similar average speeds, which can cause "leapfrogging". There's a few examples about on the internet, but it's mostly pretty conventional. Maybe there aren't any better treatments, but I thought that you might have some ideas. Just a brainstorming exercise...

Thanks!

pluc

Bus stops in the middle of the street, with bus traffic in the middle of the street would seem like a good option to me. Problem is, you would need buses with doors on the left side, which is usually not the norm, but it's been done in many places.

Being an urbanism student I've been thinking about this issue every single time I've met a bus. So far, I can't seem to come to any good alternative (one that fixes the problem once and for all).

sciencemonster

I wish someone would just teach a few of the bus drivers around here to not run bikes down. The laws of the road solve everything else.

Sure make my commute more pleasant.

rain604

In my city they have side streets that are dedicated for bikes one block away from most of the major routes. Can't the buses take bikes on them anyways? The buses in my city have bike racks on the front of them.

cal_gundert05

I'm not sure that trying to cram everyone (cars, buses, bicycles) onto the same streets is the best idea.

I assume that most cities would like to see more bike and bus commuters, with minimal traffic complications. The leap-frogging situation you mentioned would only get worse with more bicyclists and buses, though. I guess that explains why you're asking us, huh? But, without an absolutely rock solid solution, I say let bicyclists an alternate route that they will want to take (few stop signs in the main direction of travel, wide bike lanes, decent street surfaces, mild grades, etc).

znomit

Busses should have ramps at either end so we can ride up and over them.

Rowan

Try Paris and see if you can make contact with somone in the Lord Mayor's office responsible for cycling in particular. Paris has been trying for the past five years to improve the lot of cycling, including designation of bus/bike lanes, and introduction of cheap bike hire.

In much of Paris, the bus lanes are the exclusive domain of buses, taxis, bicycles and motorcycles. Cars are not permitted. All the lane users seem to get on quite well, irrespective of cyclist speed (which means wheeled pedestrians can share comfortably along with fast riders). The volume of bus traffic is not huge in each lane except perhaps at peak hour, and the taxi drivers seem quite patient.

It's a nice feeling to be able to ride at a fair clip and leave the early morning (or late afternoon) car traffic gridlocked. In fact, cycling in Parisian taffic was a fun experience with or without the bus lanes because of its relativley slow movement and the willingness of drivers to allow cyclists to move across lanes (which apprpopriate signalling).

Torrilin

On a 4 way intersection, buses ordinarily stop at the first available corner. Where this design is used, it becomes more difficult for the bus to get moving again. This leads to more delays for both the bus and other traffic. If the bus stops at the second corner or in mid-block, it can get moving easily. I'm much less likely to run into dangerous leap frogging on routes where buses have these sorts of stops.

The demands of on street parking seem to be a major factor in where bus stops are located. It seems to be far easier to use a good stop location when there is no on street parking.

I don't think trying to reverse normal loading procedures is likely to be helpful. Center medians are not a standard feature of city streets, and without a median there is no space for people to line up out of traffic. And a design that mandates that *every* bus user cross a street, every time does not seem like a good way to improve traffic flow. It does seem like a good way to disenfranchise bus users who need a wheelchair, since it would be hard for them to line up to get on the bus.

tsl

I agree that moving bus stops past intersections is helpful. I first saw this in Las Vegas and thought it was odd. Then I moved to another neighborhood and found them here. It's something that works. It clears up delays in the right lane nicely, and eliminates the issue of cars trying to turn right in front of buses.

As for center-of-the-street bus loading. Bad idea.

They do that with the streetcars in Toronto. Maybe the residents get used to is, but as a visitor, I've never gotten confortable standing on a skinny little median in the middle of traffic. And if it rains, getting splashed from both sides. My first instinct is to step back from the curb, but that means stepping back off the median into traffic going the other way. Yikes!

wahoonc

I would suggest research into the various European cities with high cycle use; places like Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Paris, etc. I realize that there are major differences in the way they do things in those countries, but more information on how different places handle it the better informed your design will be. I have never understood why bus stops HAD to be on corners, middle of the block makes a bit more sense.

Aaron

oddfitz

Now that is an innovative solution. It solves the rider-overcoming-bus problem, but we would need another method to finish out the bus-overcoming-rider part of the leapfrogging equation. Maybe design busses with a cross section like a catamaran hull so busses and riders could mutually coexist in the same section of street?



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_von_vorn.jpg

(Sorry - I've a fair amount of systems engineer training, so outlandish ways to meet requirements are cool.)

alpinist

In Seattle, most bus stops are right AFTER the intersection, so there isn't as much blocking. Also, most busses have bike racks on the front of them, and they are nearly always full during peak hours. There are a lot of combination bus/bike commuters around here. Bike/ferry commuters too, for that matter.

pluc

And thinking about this... what is the width of the road and sidewalks in your theorical case? How many lanes, are there parking spaces, etc? Do you have CAD drawing we can mess with?

donnamb 

Ljwoodw, check your PM.

ottawa_adam

Yeah getting better bus drivers would be a good start. I have no qualms about leapfrogging buses. Some drivers have no problems with it either. It's the bad drivers that pass me and give me no room. It's a fact of life that we have to share the road and if we can do it in the most harmonious manner, it would make life easier on us all. In fact, I had such a driver charged with careless driving last year He damn-near killed me!

trombone

Remove cars from the city.

Seriously. All the talk about making cities better for cyclists / pedestrians / public transport etc all revolve around how those users could better co-exist on the street accepting as given that there is a lot more cars than anything else. The problem is too many cars. Significantly reduce the number of cars, and it gets better for buses and cyclists with no other modifications required.

Bus drivers can be aggressive towards cyclists because they have to be aggressive to other road users in order to meet their schedules. The reason they have to do this is because there are too many cars. Cyclists get included in the rage as an unfortunate side effect. Less cars = easier for bus drivers to meet their timetables = less aggression to other road users. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

Unfortunately this approach is politically unacceptable (motorists represent more votes), and goes against 100 years of traffic management which prioritises the private car.

Cars are the problem. Everything else is the solution.

MACinRWC

I recently heard of a New York City project where the order of the lanes on the street were switched around on a test street. In stead of having the bike lane between live traffic and curb parking/bus stop, the arrangement put the bike lane next to the curb, re-ordering the street so that parking/ bus stops lay between live traffic and the bike lane. The findings showed to eliminate a great amount of bike accidents, as well as bus to bike issues.

check out this video
https://www.streetfilms.org/archives/...ed-bike-lanes/

HoustonGal

That seems like a good idea. Similar to what you see in Amsterdam.

On multi-lane roads would it be possible to have a dedicated bus lane on the far right, then the bike lane, then the car lanes? It would only work on wide city streets with a lot of bus traffic though. And you'd probably have to ban car parking on the street.

JoeyBike

Welcome!

I commute on two major roads that support bus traffic. One road has two narrow lanes each direction, the other has three wide lanes each direction. Both have signals at every major intersection and bus stops about every six blocks (not including express buses that only stop at a few major crossings.

I can't think of more than twice in ten years that I had a major conflict with a bus. I bike around 23 mph on a calm day (no wind). Generally, I stay way ahead of them. Once in a great while I will leap-frog a bus for two or three lights. I go around the bus, the bus goes around me. No big deal.

If I were a slower cyclist, and leap-frogging was a common problem, I would just stop passing the buses should I encounter them.

On the more narrow road I had an experience this past winter on a stormy night. I passed a bus about 7:30 PM during a nasty thunderstorm. I have bright headlights and blinkys. I was biking around 18 MPH. The bus driver - bless his soul - had no stops for a solid three miles and drove about three car lengths behind me running interference for me! So I had a twenty ton escort for three miles even though there was room for him/her to pass me at any time.

On the wider three-lane road, be it bus, taxi, or any other vehicle - I have a nice trick. If a vehicle cannot pass me on the left because of traffic volume (maybe he wants to turn right a few blocks up, or in the case of a bus needs to stay right for his next stop) and pressures me closely from behind (because I control the entire right lane on purpose), I move LEFT - yes LEFT and split the lanes! When I settle onto the white dashed lines I wave them by ON MY RIGHT with my right hand. I know this sound counterintuitive and dangerous, but it really works. It also saves me from God-knows how many right-hooks each day. This is far safer than moving to the right curb for many reasons - doors, peds, glass, right hooks, etc.

BTW...I don't like striped bike paths on major roads. Luckily, my city does not have any. So I can use any part of the road I want to. If cars expected me to stay withing some silly stipes my commute would be terrible. So maybe get rid of those stripes and educate bus drivers. They should know that your cycling citizens are not obstructing traffic......they ARE traffic - and are entitled to their space on the road.

You asked for "Out Of The Box" remember.

ljwoodw

This is great! Thanks everyone - I did ask for "Out of the Box" because actually, I'm not just starting this research - it's just that most treatments involve minor adaptations that don't necessarily work a whole lot better. I think on a few streets in Portland they've tried routing the bike lane up on the sidewalk to go around the bus stop (works well, if you have the sidewalk space). My city actually also has bicycle-priority roads just off the main streets, but as a high-speed commuter, I almost never use them because there's too many stop signs.

znomit - that's what I'm talking about - sometimes it's the absolutely preposterous ideas that help to get the wheels spinning (so to speak).

Far-side boarding has been tried in a few places, especially when there's a signal-priority system set up so buses don't have to stop at the traffic light, and then again to pick up passengers (Zurich has some great examples). Dedicated bus lanes are great for both buses and cyclists if you can find the road space (read: in the prevailing political climate)

cal_gundert05

How about thinner buses--they could stay on the right side of the lane, and bicyclists can ride around on their left side.

Or wider lanes on the right side of the road, to achieve the same effect.

jpmartineau

They've actually done this in Montreal, on Pie IX street. The bus stops were located on the median, and on each side of the median was a dedicated bus lane, which was opposite to regular traffic:

=== sidewalk ===
<<< regular traffic <<<
<<< regular traffic <<<
>>> bus lane >>>
=== median (with bus shelters) ===
<<< bus lane >>>
>>> regular traffic >>>
>>> regular traffic >>>
=== sidewalk ===

Everything was perfect until a pedestrian too many got killed while crossing on a red light to reach the median, to catch the bus. They reverted to the regular right hand bus lane and put the bus stops back on each side of the street...

st0ut

Most citys have parking stickers or the like. Limt one parking pass per household living in the city. double the amoutn of busses /and increase train capacity (if you have one) by 25%. make tham accepetle to use not for welfare family but for bussiness class.
$5 tolls on off ramps leading to your citys surface streets. A tax CREDIT for every employee that a company has that telecommutes or trasfers to alternative transportation bike train or buss. the city will make up the reevnue on tolls and increaed ridership.

its not a technical or engineering problem it is a political one.

HOV

Two words: underground bikeway. Maybe Segway scooters or rollerbladers allowed also, but no unwheeled pedestrians allowed.

Designed just like subway tunnels but for strictly bike traffic. Only a few major bike thoroughfares would be required per city (leading from the major suburbs to the city center), a superhighway of sorts for bicycles. Exits go to an upramp/offramp to a surface street bike path.

3 or 4 lanes per direction, traffic rules strictly enforced. For commuters only, no recreational riding allowed during commute times. Pass required for entry during commute times.

devildogmech

I do believe he's trying to find an engineering solution to the political problem.....

Hope you find it, I realy do.