beech333

I need to replace the cottered crank spindle on my Pelissier, but I admit that I know virtually nothing about them. Sure, I can try to measure it and buy something longer, but I wonder if there may be more to it than that. As it is, the bike is using a single chainring and the chainring is precariously close to the chainstay. The ring is ever so slightly bent, so it likely gets even closer when riding. Is there a standard, in terms of what spindle should be used for French vs Italian vs English spindles with single, double, or triple chainrings? How would I know what to purchase? Help!!!



FWIW, I have zero interest in switching to square tapered cranks.

juvela

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it might help readers to give meaningful suggestions if you could post images of the assembly that is in there at present

there are some "kinda-sorta" standards, "tendencies" might be a better term...


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iab

First, you'll need a spindle for a 68mm BB shell. I'd say English would be fine, but I wonder if the spindle diameter is interchangeable with the cups. I have no clue, Italian or nothing.

The middle of the spindle is pretty standard, about 56mm for a 70mm Italian shell. I'd assume 54mm for French and English. Non-drive crank end is also pretty standard, I see 32-35mm. The range is size depends on the crank arm design. City arms are more robust and tend towards that 35mm size, corsa arms use less material and tend towards the 32mm size. But of course, there is no hard and fast to that.

The big variation is obviously on the drive crank end. For singles, I see 121-132mm total widths. Again, that range depends on crank arm design and frame design. Obviously doubles are wider.

So take your existing spindle, measure it on all 3 portions, add 2-3 on the drive side and Bob's yer uncle. If you find a spindle with a wider non-drive than your existing, I'd add that to the drive side too. I only have spindles for 70mm shells.

3alarmer 

https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...ank-dimensions

...used to be you could find links to a pdf of the various editions of Sutherland's. I haven't looked in a long time, ever since I gave a link to someone to a free online version, and got flamed by the copyright zealots on this forum.
I have my own hard copies, but they are out in the garage. Maybe someone more internet savvy has an image of the pages you need ? In the 4th edition, it's pages 3-4, 3-5,3-6, and 3-7. It's a lot of information, and there is considerable variation.

Besides overall length, and distance between the bearing lands, there's diameter and offset (for road double or track single, etc.) English, French Raleigh, Japanese, Cinelli proprietary with a 74 mm shell, Thompson....etc.

My advice would be to find and take a look at these pages in Sutherland's.
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3alarmer 

...FWIW, the information for French reads: Shell width 68mm ,Axle centers 54.5-56.5mm, used for both road and track. French axle end diameter is a nominal 16mm, with an actual measure of 15.9mm
But there are several categories of overall length in the French division, ranging from those most commonly used on the various large makers (Gitane, Moto, Peugeot and RFG). with slightly different measures for the left side, right side, and center of the spindle.

*Peugeot, of course, is not interchangeable with the others.

beech333

Fair enough. The current spindle is stronglight and I don't recognize what the crankarms. are. I question if the arms are as old as the frame.

I have not measured with calipers, but the arm to chainstay distance appears symmetrical, within just a couple mm.

3alarmer 

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...if you are happy with the current position of the chainwheel, I would just measure the distance on the right side (bearing land to the end), and the end diameter, as well as the center point. Then try for something in a similar overall length, that matches those characteristics. I have never shopped for one of these online, because there was an old box of cottered spindles at the co-op that always had something I could use. Not sure if it's there any more.

You might have to fiddle around filing new cotter flats to match the cut of the new spindle.

abdon 

The easiest way would be to find the nearest bike nonprofits that run a shop. I see the Reciclery is in Chicago so the next time you are in town you could stop by. The benefit is that they should have a box full of them for you to swap around until you find your fit.

bulgie 

Why do you say you need to replace the spindle? Are the bearing races pitted?

It almost sounds like you want a longer one only because of the tight clearance between teeth and chainstay. If that's the case, let me set your mind at ease, that's plenty of clearance, and making more space there would likely make the bike worse.

That Stronglight spindle is high quality. I'd keep it if I could or look for another identical part if it really must be replaced. I have a couple of them, but I'm not selling. Don't remember where I got them but of course ebay is a good place to hunt. Create a saved search so they'll email you when one comes along.

An English spindle will be nominal 5/8", which is a few thousandths of an inch smaller than the nominal 16 mm of French and Italian spindles. Sounds close enough but it isn't, the crank will flop around on the spindle and make it hard to keep the cotters tight. Whatever diameter your crank is, that's the spindle diameter you need. Probably nominal 16 mm on a French bike, but measuring is good, they often had loose tolerance and actual diameter is never exactly equal to the nominal diameter. They're pretty much always smaller, such that French spindles actually do measure about 5/8", where English measure well under, about .615 to .622" (5/8" is .625" in decimal)
The real test is fitting. The crank should go on, but only barely, no extra slop.

It appears to me that Stronglight made 5/8" spindles as well as nominal 16 mm. I base that not on catalogs but on measuring the ones I have. One is .629 (very close to French nominal), the other is .623", a little less than 5/8".

Here's a pic from when I measured the diameters of all my cottered spindles:

Stupidly, I didn't get the brand markings facing up as I wrote the measured diameters on them. So I took another pic with them rotated to show what's stamped in the middle between the bearings. I can upload that too but it's mostly for my own entertainment, I doubt it'd have much interest here.

BTW one of the .629" spindles is a Zeus, and it has a fantastic appearance, looking to be super precise, though I have no way of knowing if it really is. But to my eye, it's even finer looking than the Stronglights, which are my second best. Grab a Zeus if you ever get a chance. Campagnolo made a cottered spindle too, but they're super rare and priced for well-heeled collectors only. I've never held one in my hand. My holy grail spindle is a Boehm, the lightest ever made, also super rare and expensive when they turn up.

Zeus and Stronglight are also hollow, but not as hollow as a Boehm, where the hollow even follows the flat spot for the cotter, an amazing feat of manufacturing. The Boehm hollow isn't drilled, it's forged.

nlerner

Geez, Mark, you’re far more detail-oriented than I am. I just lined ‘em all up and took a pic!

smontanaro 

I have a few spindles you can pick through. I found the experience rather frustrating when searching for something suitable for my Automoto. I'm in Evanston. If my small collection isn't sufficient to do the trick, the Recyclery is nearby in Rogers Park. As others have mentioned, dimensions of your existing setup are pretty much required.

macstuff 

I recently ran across a cartridge style BB using Cottered spindles. It was on a FB group.... maybe "steel is real"...
I didn't follow up on it because I either swap them out with modern stuff or keep them exactly original.
Cottered bottom brackets are still plentiful so getting a proper replacement shouldn't be hard. You didn't mention exactly why yours needed replacement but do mention a current single and musings on a double?
Most Cottered crank arms I've seen are basically straight. the differences are in the depth of the axle receiver on each arm. the cotter pin groove at the end of each side of the axle is the same basic distance from the ends on all the spindles. As Cottered axle get longer, its the drive side that the length is added to. The non-drive sides are all pretty much all the same within a few millimeters. I guess tandems being an exception.
So if you measure the length of your current axle, you know a minimum for a one ring using the current drive side arm receiver depth. Whichever drive side double you want to use is just measured at the receiver end and compared to what you have.
The ring being close to the chain stay is not an issue as long as it is not touching (4mm-ish). How close is something to pay attention to in maintaining a good chainline.
I have several cottered crank bikes and in my experience with these (English), Single ring spindles are 118-128mm and doubles are in the 128-135mm range

A local co-op can be a great resource for spindles,

75lechamp 

I have been collecting parts for my '67 Paramount to put it back to original spec. One of these components is the steel Stronglight cottered crank and Stronglight BB. So far, I have a Stronglight 54 with simplex alloy chainrings, along with a Stronglight BB and spindle.

However, I think what I have here is an French spindle and an English crank. From the research I have done, I believe this spindle is the right length (132, as marked), but I think the English ones are marked with an "A" prefix to denote English rather than French. According to the Information above from Mark, the French spindle is slightly bigger, which appears to be the situation here, as this spindle will not fit into the hole in the crank arm.

Given the rarity of these parts, I am not quite sure of the next step. I think my options are to either 1) trade this 132 spindle for an A132, or 2) have the ends of the spindle machined down a few thousandths to fit, or 3) machine out the crank arm holes a few thousandths to fit the spindle.

My preference would be to trade spindles if anyone out there has one that would work in this instance. Otherwise, what would you do?

Thanks,

Andy



Parts collection thus far...

Diameter of the spindle is about 0.629, pretty much exactly the diameter of the crank arm opening, no room to slide on...

bikingshearer 

nlerner and bulgie: Nlerner wins. He has 15 of the spindles for the crank-style-that-must-not-be-named. Bulgie only has 12.

blamester

I think Bulgie is correct. If it was rubbing you would know and be able to see the marks.
The only reason to change it is if it is worn or you want a double or triple.

oneclick 

I'd have a go at the bores of those cups with a small stone in a hand-held grinder; hold it loosely enough that it rattles around inside the hole for 30 seconds and I bet you'd get the ten thou you need.

martl

Just a few additions.

The clearance between the chainwheel and the chainstay is not critical as long as there is no contact. Even under load, there is almost no variation here as the force is effective in the "z" axis and this is the "x" achsis, so to speak. I have bikes with chainwheel clearance way smaller than what can be seen in the op pic. Of course the crankarm end has to clear the chainstay.

Cotter pin filing is an artform. You want the face of the bevel to be as flat as possible so contact is not only at one small point; this would lead to the connection geting loose pretty fast.
you want the angle of the bevel on the pins on both sides as identical as possible in order to get 180° instead of 179 or 181

Cotter pins come i different diameters, i have several sizes in my spare parts box ranging from, if memory serves, 6.5 millimeters to 9,5 in instances of 0,5. Finding the correct one can be a challenge. 've travelled the old school bike shops in town more than once with calipers to find a pair for my prewar Automoto. Some sizes are more common than others. pins are consumables; removing a cotter pin especially one that has been in its place a long time typically damages the threaded part unless you have a press (see below). Using a hammer requires a support underneath the crank or damage to other parts like the bearings and races is inevitable.

There are tools both for cotter pin removal (cotter pin press) as well as for filing. Buying both will set you back the price of a nice bike. Luckily they are not necessary and can be compensated for by using extra care and a big hammer.

the upper end of the pin should be shortened to be flush or almost flush with the crankarm. If it sticks out as long as in that pic above, it will grab trouser legs like no tomorrow. While maybe irrelevant for a bike that is only ridden wearing bibs, it is a matter of style and craftsmanship

randyjawa 

I cannot remember exactly which bike I did this on but I did manage to sand down a spindle to fit. Using emery cloth, I paid close attention to sanding as equally as I could around the entire surface. Worked out just fine but did use up a plentiful supply of time, coupled with elbow grease. Pretty sure this was the bike with the modified spindle...