RobbieTunes

...and I just paid cyclomondo for some "Made in Italy" decals...for a Cinelli.

I wonder if it will be harder to sell if I get some "Made in Burkina-Faso" decals for it?

Just joking.
I think with the "branding" phenomenon that's got a choke-hold on marketing, everything from undewear to whole countries, the "Made in...." stuff has just gotten darn near irrelevant.

No matter where it's made, if it stinks, it stinks, and word gets out.

As long as beer can be made and shipped to where I can get it, I'm fine. Same with the other stuff I want.

mtnbke

You know though, at the higher end of the market, for any product, the ethos of the brand has more to do with the brand identity than the quality.

Fat Chance, Yeti, Merlin, Seven, Independent, Atlantis, and Bontrager (old Race Lite stuff), Klein (pre-Trek) all were as as good, if not better, at frame building than any Italian framebuilder. In fact you can't even begin to compare the technical expertise required to master welding titanium and aluminum with just working with steel. Steel will completely mask an incompetent framebuilder, other more exotic frame materials won't.

The pure and simple truth is that there was a renaissance of frame building, and it happened here in the states, and most of it wasn't focusing on lighweight steel bikes.

The vintage lightweights that are Japanese that are equivalent or superior to the Italian stuff gets thrown in the dumpster while vintage Italian stuff commands a premium. Go figure.

The reality is that vanity and pretense dominate the cycling market, and always will. The fact is that we all know some complete tool of a cyclist who has some uberzoot bike and lives some weird fantasy lie in that he rides every group ride as if he's somehow Fausto Coppi. The reality being that it isn't about the bike and never has been, and never will be. Dominant cyclists are dominant regardless of their equipment.

At the end of the day the kit is for poseurs.

God I love the kit though...

I dream about Mavic 841 and 870 derailleurs lying there on the shelf, NOS.

Picchio Special

True.

OK, I've gone and figured. There's more to it than that. Italy is probably the world center of cycling culture, and has been for a long time. The "Italian stuff" was developed over decades by guys working closely with the top racers and component manufacturers. The Italian builders were very good at overall design, and those designs and style were often copied by builders in other countries. Prior to about 1980 hand work dominated the making of upper end bicycles to an extent that was not true after investment castings and assembly line production took over. Those hand built bikes very often fail to live up to the standards of finish (and in some cases general build quality) that are often attributed to them in the popular vintage bicycle imagination - the post-war UK builders knock them into a cocked hat in that regard. But they were built by hand in relatively small numbers nevertheless. And they were often ridden by the top professionals whose legendary status now largely defines the sport.


This does indeed surely account for some of the mystical aura surrounding Italian racing bicycles, including those of an earlier time. But the truth (which is rarely pure and simple) lies somewhere between marketing and hype, one the one hand, and genuine superiority of execution on the other. It's not about "quality" in the simple sense, sure. But in a larger sense, many older Italian bicycles have real "qualities" that make them special and worth collecting and riding. I often call it "charm" - hard to define, but real nevertheless.

sced

It's a good thing for tinkerers and collectors that off-brand frames and components are unappreciated = cheap cuz most people want a Colnago or a Cinelli or a Pinarello with C-Record etc. I want it to stay this way.

dit

If an American tool company contracts tools to be made in China are the tools American? I don't think so but I am just funny that way.

Casrider

Question - how many of you that say "it doesn't matter" own an Italian brand bike designed and built in Italy?

My guess would be that if you do have an Italian brand that was designed and built in Italy, that it does matter.

I like Italian designs and builds. Yes, I spent a lot of money to get mine. Because very few bikes are built in Italy today - those that are more likely built by hand. The quality is obvious.

Regarding US Masi - If il Signor Masi lost the rights to his name for the bike in the US then he obviously doesn't have any connection to it anymore. Most "Masi" bikes on the street today I wouldn't consider Italian - I don't even think of them as real Masi bikes. The story of Masi bikes in the US is so sordid. I think it's rotten what happened. Mass production isn't in keeping with the Masi tradition.

If it says "Made in Italy" I expect it to be designed and built in Italy. It pays to do the background research to avoid disappointment if you want the real Italian stallions.

Casrider

As long as there are still Italian families of frame builders in making bikes in Italy and selling them under Italian brands I do think it's relevant.

When the last Italian family stops building - then it won't be.

Casrider

Believe me - if you're considering buying a new artisan hand built Italian you'll do the research because an artisan hand built will run you easily $1000+ for just the frame (and maybe fork).
If we're talking about a vintage frame - well, who is going to go around to all the garage sales and second hand shops to put the decal on the bikes?
For C&V it's sort of a moot point. Do your research or get screwed. That applies to more than where the bike was made.

As for Taiwan made "Italian" bikes vs. Italian made Italian bikes - If made from the same materials, 99.9% guarantee that the Italian born and bred frame set will be more expensive than the Taiwanese.

vjp

There is no "lost the rights", Faliero Masi SOLD the rights/goodwill to his name.

vjp

Picchio Special

Do me a favor. Don't jump into a nearly two-month-old thread and then pull a particular quote of mine from page one to comment on unless you've read all of the subsequent comments. (You'd see we're pretty much on the same page, for one thing.) Next, don't presume to tell me "what I'll do" - I know how to buy a frame. I'll "believe you" when I think you know what you're talking about, and as of this minute, I have know idea if you know squat, other than throwing a bunch of %^$#* at this thread. Well, that and having a pretty facile take on Masi USA. Maybe take a step back (and lose the condescending tone).

Casrider

That's still the situation with Casati, thank you very much. Two dealers in the entire US that I know of. One on the west coast, the other on the east coast. I think they sponsored a Jamba Juice team a few years back but I don't think they are currently. There's very little info out there.
What I know is Pietro Casati taught his son Gianni, Gianni taught sons Massimo and Luca, and brought daughter Manuela into the business as well. As far as I know Gianni is still working in the shop.
Most people have never heard of Casati, including those that might know other "great" Italian bikes. You can't find an advertisement for them in any magazine. Good luck in finding any branded jersey.
What you get instead is a stellar bicycle - superb attention to details - amazing geometry - and a serious head turner. People might not know a Casati bike but when you ride past them they do try to catch up and see what it is you're riding.
I real Italian.

Casrider

whoa - take a breath

the "you" was a generalization - not you meaning Picchio Special

yeah, I don't know all there is to know about Masi, I keep forgetting he sold the brand name for one, but that's because the brand, especially the US one, really isn't on my radar

there wasn't an argument in my post by the way - I was just pointing out that when you run into a bike frame that is from one of the legendary frame building families it's going to cost you - and it will cost you more if the particular frame was made in Italy, even if they make other frames in Taiwan

and if you're at that level you've probably done the research because you're going to be dropping a few Gs - I've never met someone who hasn't done the extensive research that is buying at that price point
wait, yes I have, but you could have sold him the Brooklyn Bridge because he just liked "expensive things"

Picchio Special

Agree - the Casati Gold Line frames are beautifully built, generally. Casati did also make some mid-level frames (as did virtually every other Italian builder in the 80's).

Picchio Special

Your post just seemed a little "Johnny Come Lately" - especially since I backed a away a bit from the post you quoted in one of my subsequent posts. It's surprising how many people buy on hype/brand and don't do the research - and they often drop considerable coin on their purchases. I do, in fact, have an order in for a custom frame, but I went with a local builder for that one. The fact that the legendary frame building families can charge what they do is partly because of the work they did establishing the brand, not necessarily because the frames are any better (sometimes they is, sometimes they ain't). A lot of the "Grandpa built all the frames with his own two hands, then taught his son, then he taught the grandson" is marketing in any case. Many of those shops, even the small ones, had more than two hands routinely on the bikes. I like Alberto Masi's newer frames - but he's having to raise his game because the better US custom builders (and a few other builders like Pegoretti and folks like Samson and Nagasawa) have significantly raised the bar over most of what Faliero produced or could teach.

Reynolds 

It matters to me. When I built my Pinarello I wanted something different. It's a low end frame with Veloce 9sp group, but it's all Italian and Made in Italy, except for rims, tires, tubes, pedals, bottle cage and computer. However, I'm thinking about some Campagnolo rims to replace my Mavics, and Vittoria tires and tubes - but these are made in Thailand now!

Mike Mills

LOL! ! !

I think that kind of situation is what prompted this entire thread.

sced

I have a BikesDirect Bottecchia with Columbus Zonal tubing and almost all Record components, with a few Vuelta parts. Everything about it speaks Italian except the Made in Taiwan sticker on the frame. Bottecchia, Columbus, Campagnolo, and Vuelta are all Italian companies, so is the bike Italian or not?

Picchio Special

I think we've done this exact type of question pretty much to death.

sced

I have Viner frame with a "Made in Italy" sticker on it. If I build it up with all asian parts is it an Italian bike?

rumrunn6

I'm 100% Italian genetically, but grew up here (US) and I don't speak a word of Italian. I consider myself Italian/American much the way one thinks of an African/American. Maybe you can apply the same consideration to your bike.

repechage

Faliero Masi leased the rights to the Masi name in the USA. And got royalties too.

Now, I have no idea as to how the rights got subordinately assigned and or sold later. As late as the 90's Masi was still getting some royalties from Torelli Imports.

Reynolds 

rumrunn6

I'm kinda crushin' on those Italian gears!

viscount

Anybody who ever owned an Italian car would know the the answer to the original question.
Good image etc. but when it comes to build quality and maintenance.....
It's probably better made elsewhere.
Anywhere else.

Picchio Special

This is a ridiculous statement. But then, I guess knowledge of the subject at hand is not officially a condition for posting. You just have to kind of hope people can self-edit.