View Poll Results: Do you take total responsibility for your safety when cycling in traffic?
No, I accept the brunt of the responsibilty, but motorists are responsible for my safety too.
56.04%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll
Who is responsible for your safety?
03-14-07, 09:04 AM
#326
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Originally Posted by Speedo
Oh, and corrective action number three. I no longer agree that there is too much whining and complaining and blaming of motorists.
03-14-07, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Well, I probably should have said:
They are irresponsible. They are IRresponsible. They are NOT (acting) responsible for their actions.
In any case, what does this have to do with Vehicular Cycling?
They are irresponsible. They are IRresponsible. They are NOT (acting) responsible for their actions.
In any case, what does this have to do with Vehicular Cycling?
Are you saying that this poll about responsibility is really about vehicular cycling?
Some friendly advice...I'd just let this thread die, because the more you say the more it goes badly for you. You've been pwn3d by so many people we may have to designate you as community property.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-14-07, 09:08 AM
#328
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Originally Posted by flipped4bikes
Absurd conclusions. If they drove responsibly and safely, they indeed, would not be threats to our safety. Of course they are not responsible for our safety like a nursemaid, however, they are responsible for driving safely. And that has both direct and indirect implications upon not just cyclist's safety, but everyone else. Despite your protestations to the contrary.
capable of being trusted : a responsible adult.
I was not using it in the sense of:having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role : the department responsible for education.
They are responsible (in the 2nd sense above), but they are also IRresponsible, and so not responsible (in the first sense). That's what I meant, but it's obviously confusing. I've updated the original post accordingly.
03-14-07, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Semantics. I was using "responsible" in a difference sense,
03-14-07, 09:18 AM
#330
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Perhaps what HH really meant... but did not have the reading or writing skills to succinctly express, is:
Motorists ARE indeed responsible for their actions, but may chose to not drive responsibly, therefore cyclists should act accordingly.
Motorists ARE indeed responsible for their actions, but may chose to not drive responsibly, therefore cyclists should act accordingly.
03-14-07, 09:23 AM
#331
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Semantics. I was using "responsible" in a difference sense, as in:
capable of being trusted : a responsible adult.
I was not using it in the sense of:having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role : the department responsible for education.
They are responsible (in the 2nd sense above), but they are also IRresponsible, and so not responsible (in the first sense). That's what I meant, but it's obviously confusing. I've updated the original post accordingly.And I'm the one playing semantics?
03-14-07, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Perhaps what HH really meant... but did not have the reading or writing skills to succinctly express, is:
Motorists ARE indeed responsible for their actions, but may chose to not drive responsibly, therefore cyclists should act accordingly.
Motorists ARE indeed responsible for their actions, but may chose to not drive responsibly, therefore cyclists should act accordingly.
Instead we got another HH Brand Poll with HH Brand interpretations of the English language, HH Brand interpretations of someone else's book AND 320 (and counting) posts and replys. Do the math.
03-14-07, 09:40 AM
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Announcement:
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Please continue.
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Please continue.
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03-14-07, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Perhaps what HH really meant... but did not have the reading or writing skills to succinctly express,
is:
Motorists ARE indeed responsible for their actions, but may chose to not drive responsibly, therefore cyclists should act accordingly.
Motorists ARE indeed responsible for their actions, but may chose to not drive responsibly, therefore cyclists should act accordingly.
03-14-07, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Are you holding me responsible for the fact that the word "responsible" has multiple meanings in English?
----
03-14-07, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Speedo
Hubris. That's what it is hubris. I've had an amazingly long run without a near miss of any kind, so i guess I was getting cocky.
It took the cycling gods less than twenty four hours to come down on me for that. This morning on my way to work, the closest close call I've ever had.
A right hook from a small purple sedan driven by a guy who looked and sounded like Woody Allen.
My first thought was not to wonder what I had done wrong. My first thought was to catch the guy and remove his lungs from
his chest cavity. When I did catch up to him, I had calmed down enough so that all he got was an adrenelin-fired tongue lashing.
For the rest of the ride, I did have the chance to reflect on the "where did I go wrong?" question. It was apparent from
what he kept trying to say as I screamed at him, that he "was just trying to get around" me. So he saw me, but misjudged. It's
a busy road I failed to pick out the sound of his approach from the other traffic. I don't use a mirror. So I think corrective
action number one is:
Get a mirror.
This particular road is used as a two lanes each way road, but it is not legally wide enough for a two lanes each way road.
It is not stripped for two lanes, and there is no fog line. I'm already part of a group advocating to have the road either widened
or properly stripped. Anyway, given my natural tendencies I ride about three feet out from the end of the usable pavement.
On this road, I should be at least another two feet out. If I had been further out then the right hooker might not have been
tempted to try and get around me. So, corrective action number two.
Ride further out from the edge of the pavement.
Oh, and corrective action number three. I no longer agree that there is too much whining and complaining and blaming of motorists.
Speedo
It took the cycling gods less than twenty four hours to come down on me for that. This morning on my way to work, the closest close call I've ever had.
A right hook from a small purple sedan driven by a guy who looked and sounded like Woody Allen.
My first thought was not to wonder what I had done wrong. My first thought was to catch the guy and remove his lungs from
his chest cavity. When I did catch up to him, I had calmed down enough so that all he got was an adrenelin-fired tongue lashing.
For the rest of the ride, I did have the chance to reflect on the "where did I go wrong?" question. It was apparent from
what he kept trying to say as I screamed at him, that he "was just trying to get around" me. So he saw me, but misjudged. It's
a busy road I failed to pick out the sound of his approach from the other traffic. I don't use a mirror. So I think corrective
action number one is:
Get a mirror.
This particular road is used as a two lanes each way road, but it is not legally wide enough for a two lanes each way road.
It is not stripped for two lanes, and there is no fog line. I'm already part of a group advocating to have the road either widened
or properly stripped. Anyway, given my natural tendencies I ride about three feet out from the end of the usable pavement.
On this road, I should be at least another two feet out. If I had been further out then the right hooker might not have been
tempted to try and get around me. So, corrective action number two.
Ride further out from the edge of the pavement.
Oh, and corrective action number three. I no longer agree that there is too much whining and complaining and blaming of motorists.
Speedo
Yes, he probably misjudged your speed and/or his speed, and that's probably because he was doing it subconcsciously, on autopilot. As wacky as it sounds, it's amazing how a simple look back over your shoulder can be effective in terms of snapping a driver out of whatever zone he is in, and back to reality. You can hear it immediately, as the pitch of the tire noise their car is making suddenly drops when they start slowing as soon as you turn your head. And if you can't hear it due to ambient noise, you can see it, as well as their usual adjustment left.
But the main thing is that the look back let's you know there is a potential conflict, and give syou the opportunity to deal with it.
03-14-07, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Scout!
It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
----
----
What do you want from me?
Here is the original post, with updates:
Originally Posted by genec
My point is that these folks are NOT predictable, and ARE responsible for their actions, which they voluntarily undertake.
Repeat after me: They are not responsible. They are NOT responsible. They are NOT responsible for their actions.
And they are most certainly not responsible for your safety.
Stop expecting them to be.
"The successful urban cyclist counts on nothing but chaos and stupidity." -Robert Hurst
Edit: The word "responsible" has multiple meanings in the English language. The meaning I intended above is:
capable of being trusted : a responsible adult.
Obviously, if one interprets my point using the meaning of "responsible" to be "having an obligation to do something", then my point becomes nonsense, and you could play silly semantics games all day.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-14-07 at 10:16 AM.
03-14-07, 10:22 AM
#338
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Are you holding me responsible for the fact that the word "responsible" has multiple meanings in English?
Of course that's what I meant. Thanks for making the effort to understand what I meant, and not playing semantics by insisting on using a meaning of "responsible" that I obviously did not intend.
Of course that's what I meant. Thanks for making the effort to understand what I meant, and not playing semantics by insisting on using a meaning of "responsible" that I obviously did not intend.
responsible
Main Entry: re·spon·si·ble
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈspän(t)-sə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Anglo-French responsable, from respuns
Date: 1643
1 a: liable to be called on to answer b (1): liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent <a committee responsible for the job> (2): being the cause or explanation <mechanical defects were responsible for the accident> c: liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties
2 a: able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : trustworthy b: able to choose for oneself between right and wrong
Main Entry: re·spon·si·ble
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈspän(t)-sə-bəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Anglo-French responsable, from respuns
Date: 1643
1 a: liable to be called on to answer b (1): liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent <a committee responsible for the job> (2): being the cause or explanation <mechanical defects were responsible for the accident> c: liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties
2 a: able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : trustworthy b: able to choose for oneself between right and wrong
responsibility
Main Entry: re·spon·si·bil·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ri-ˌspän(t)-sə-ˈbi-lə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Date: 1771
1: the quality or state of being responsible: as a: moral, legal, or mental accountability b: reliability, trustworthiness
2: something for which one is responsible : burden <has neglected his responsibilities>
Main Entry: re·spon·si·bil·i·ty
Pronunciation: \ri-ˌspän(t)-sə-ˈbi-lə-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Date: 1771
1: the quality or state of being responsible: as a: moral, legal, or mental accountability b: reliability, trustworthiness
2: something for which one is responsible : burden <has neglected his responsibilities>
03-14-07, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by I_Bike
Announcement:
WOW - this forum is so much fun for me. It's like the gift that keeps on giving...
Please continue.
WOW - this forum is so much fun for me. It's like the gift that keeps on giving...
Please continue.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-14-07, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
We'd just hate to see you bored and forced to do actual fun things.
What, like ban people?
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03-14-07, 11:47 AM
#341
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Originally Posted by genec
Perhaps it is you that has "a reading comprehension problem... " may I suggest a good dictionary.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-14-07, 11:48 AM
#342
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Originally Posted by Speedo
My first thought was not to wonder what I had done wrong. My first thought was to catch the guy and remove his lungs from his chest cavity.
"The successful urban cyclist counts on nothing but chaos and stupidity." --Robert Hurst
Just asking...
Seriously, I think a good measure of how much you have taken to heart Hurst's attitude of taking total responsibility for your safety is how you react to surprising/chaotic/stupid behavior of drivers.
I believe that you eventually got to the "where did I go wrong?" question indicates an excellent step in the direction of adopting the responsibility attitude that Hurst preaches.
By the way, a more theoretical explanation for why a cyclist, or any driver of a slow moving vehicle, should look look back at all intersection approaches is based on the reason for why looking back is ever required: to look for potential conflicts with overtaking traffic from behind.
If you're moving at the normal speed of traffic, and you're going straight, then there is unlikely to be any conflict with faster traffic from behind turning across your path (even then, glancing back is still a good habit to have). But if you're moving slowly, that is not the case. If you're slow moving, a reasonable path for faster traffic behind you that needs to turn right is to pass you and then turn right. Therefore, there is a potential conflict with from-behind traffic that is much more likely than it is for normal-speed traffic.
That's why, to meet your total responsibility for your safety, it's essential to develop the habit to look back at every intersection approach, even if you're not turning left, but just going straight, even if you're not planning on adjusting your lateral position (because you're already correctly positioned for your go-straight destination).
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-14-07 at 11:55 AM.
03-14-07, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by I_Bike
What, like ban people?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-14-07, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Oh my, a true sadist like me. Sorry Donna, I think I'm falling for this big lug!
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03-14-07, 11:58 AM
#345
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Originally Posted by I_Bike
What, like ban people?
03-14-07, 12:11 PM
#346
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Originally Posted by Dogbait
Are nominations being accepted?
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03-14-07, 12:18 PM
#347
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Originally Posted by genec
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Thanks for making the effort to understand what I meant, and not playing semantics by insisting on using a meaning of "responsible" that I obviously did not intend.
Perhaps it is you that has "a reading comprehension problem... " may I suggest a good dictionary.
What do you think I did not comprehend? Are you saying using one valid meaning of a word instead of another valid meaning constitutes a "reading comprehension problem"?
03-14-07, 01:15 PM
#348
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Originally Posted by Scout!
It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
----
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03-14-07, 01:23 PM
#349
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Originally Posted by joejack951
In terms of your safety, what impact will whining and complaining and blaming of motorists have? If none, why is it a corrective action that you suddenly feel so strongly about?
I'll venture this much, whining and complaining may not contribute much to my safety, but it was satisfying, and calming, to be able to whine and complain to people who, at the very least, understand why I felt shaken up.
Speedo
Last edited by Speedo; 03-15-07 at 08:38 AM.
03-14-07, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
More important than a mirror, I think, is to develop the habit to always, without exception (which is easy to accomplish once you have developed the habit), look back over your shoulder at any approach to any intersection, even if you're going straight.