Forester takes on BF Posters
03-14-07, 01:10 PM
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ILTB, what did JF ever do to piss you off? What did he do to mess you up so much? What ever it was it must have been really awful. No one likes to have their cheerios tinkled in, but let it go dude. Life is much to short to habor hatred for another person.
we all know & get that you don't like him, his beliefs, his manner of cycling, etc, etc., etc. But enough is enough already. JF has his own style he is not going to change it.
we all know & get that you don't like him, his beliefs, his manner of cycling, etc, etc., etc. But enough is enough already. JF has his own style he is not going to change it.
03-14-07, 01:10 PM
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Questions---How does one's support of "segregated" bike facilities translate into "anti-motoring" emotional sophistry**********??--As the chainguard letter states
I really don't understand why you can't have both segregated facilities and lawful bicycle use in traffic at the same time. Why are these 2 ideas oppossed? How does advocating that people know the rules of the road when cycling in traffic result in opposition of all other types of cycling?
What am I missing here? I understand his point that cyclists are a minority and the reality is that we need to learn to operate in the world as it is---but how does that translate into oppossition of efforts to change that reality?
I really don't understand why you can't have both segregated facilities and lawful bicycle use in traffic at the same time. Why are these 2 ideas oppossed? How does advocating that people know the rules of the road when cycling in traffic result in opposition of all other types of cycling?
What am I missing here? I understand his point that cyclists are a minority and the reality is that we need to learn to operate in the world as it is---but how does that translate into oppossition of efforts to change that reality?
03-14-07, 01:10 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by randya
You think?
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-14-07, 01:12 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by N_C
Uh where does it mention BF or it's memebrs?
Talking about an ivory tower.
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-14-07, 01:12 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by kalliergo
I'm getting really tired of this childish name-calling, DJ. I am, decidedly, not anyone's minion. If you knew me, as opposed to having simplistically categorized me, you would be in no doubt of that fact.
What is it with the adolescent gang mentality that prevails here? Did you people all beat up kids who "dressed funny" in junior high? Did you feel proud of yourselves when you did?
What is it with the adolescent gang mentality that prevails here? Did you people all beat up kids who "dressed funny" in junior high? Did you feel proud of yourselves when you did?
I am also not saying I will or would take legal action against Forester, but this is a FORUM! Meaning where we discuss things openly. If he wishes to engage the members then do so here, and don't hand pick quotes to attack and post them on a static web page. He may or not be cowardly, but his actions regarding this are.
03-14-07, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Look at that, we got him to respond. Who pwn3d who now? He replies to a public forum on his own private website??? WTF?
03-14-07, 01:16 PM
#32
Raising the Abyss
Originally Posted by skanking biker
Questions---How does one's support of "segregated" bike facilities translate into "anti-motoring" emotional sophistry**********??--As the chainguard letter states
I really don't understand why you can't have both segregated facilities and lawful bicycle use in traffic at the same time. Why are these 2 ideas oppossed? How does advocating that people know the rules of the road when cycling in traffic result in opposition of all other types of cycling?
What am I missing here? I understand his point that cyclists are a minority and the reality is that we need to learn to operate in the world as it is---but how does that translate into oppossition of efforts to change that reality?
I really don't understand why you can't have both segregated facilities and lawful bicycle use in traffic at the same time. Why are these 2 ideas oppossed? How does advocating that people know the rules of the road when cycling in traffic result in opposition of all other types of cycling?
What am I missing here? I understand his point that cyclists are a minority and the reality is that we need to learn to operate in the world as it is---but how does that translate into oppossition of efforts to change that reality?
I think it's more of the PEOPLE who repsesent these 2 ideas/ opinions(?) that create the opposition/ venom. Me right, you wrong --- it's almost as bad as politics & religion. But hopefully not as dangerous.
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03-14-07, 01:17 PM
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It's a friggin website for crying out loud. That's "real private". Just because he quoted some of the more delusional posts and posters her on BF for rebuttal is no reason to get your panties in a wad if your delusion post was not rebutted. Better luck next time.
Get over yourselves.
Get over yourselves.
Last edited by galen_52657; 03-14-07 at 06:34 PM.
03-14-07, 01:22 PM
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It can be a lot of work to understand his writing sometimes.
If you don't do the work, it might seem like he's talking in circles.
But if you do the work, the objective analysis, usually you'll find he's on pretty solid ground.
But because so few are willing to do that work, it's easy to criticize what he's saying.
If you don't do the work, it might seem like he's talking in circles.
But if you do the work, the objective analysis, usually you'll find he's on pretty solid ground.
But because so few are willing to do that work, it's easy to criticize what he's saying.
It takes a lot of work rationalizing, to get to the place where you would believe that the page in the link is on "pretty solid ground".
If you ask me, it sounds like a wannabe scientist, jumping from one method to the next to defend his reputation from the unholy.
But then again, Helmet Head imagines he can draw "pretty solid" conclusions from unscientific polling and anecdotal "evidence", or imaginary hypothetical scenarios he has built up around dead cyclists. This is not personal/animosity motivated, that's just what I've seen.
"Pretty Solid Ground"
Originally Posted by Forester
I have never stated that any one lateral roadway position is proved by any study to be either safer or more dangerous than another. I haven't done so because no study contains the date from which this could be derived.
03-14-07, 01:22 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
It's a friggin website for crying out loud. That's "real private". Just because he quoted some of the more delusional posts and posters her on BF for rebuttal is no reason to get your panties in a wad of your delusion post was not rebutted. Better luck next time.
Get over yourselves.
Get over yourselves.
Are you okay? You seem to be having mood swings as of late.
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Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-14-07, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
The work your doing is not objective analysis, it's rationalization.
It takes a lot of work rationalizing, to get to the place where you would believe that the page in the link is on "pretty solid ground".
03-14-07, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by deputyjones
I did not use any names on purpose, and as I said to HH before if you are replying directly to this you must at least be suffering from a guilty conscience.
Originally Posted by deputyjones
I am also not saying I will or would take legal action against Forester, but this is a FORUM! Meaning where we discuss things openly. If he wishes to engage the members then do so here, and don't hand pick quotes to attack and post them on a static web page. He may or not be cowardly, but his actions regarding this are.
I can't speak for Forester (whatever some may imagine), but I suspect that he is unwilling to subject himself to the viciousness and defiant ignorance that characterizes this forum. One can hardly blame him.
03-14-07, 01:26 PM
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i vc!
i live on the east coast where bicycle inclusion is cramped, or non existant in road planning from what i recently saw on the west coast.
i support and practice following set traffic laws, carry a printout of the state and town specific bicycle laws.
i mainly ride a road bike on the road and believe in forester concepts his responses appeared well thought out and fosused (alittle wordy).
i live on the east coast where bicycle inclusion is cramped, or non existant in road planning from what i recently saw on the west coast.
i support and practice following set traffic laws, carry a printout of the state and town specific bicycle laws.
i mainly ride a road bike on the road and believe in forester concepts his responses appeared well thought out and fosused (alittle wordy).
03-14-07, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
"Pretty Solid Ground"
Originally Posted by Forester
I have never stated that any one lateral roadway position is proved by any study to be either safer or more dangerous than another. I haven't done so because no study contains the date from which this could be derived.
He apparently thinks he was accused of stating that one lateral roadway position is proved by study to be either safer or more dangerous than another.
He denies ever stating that, and explains why.
What's the problem?
03-14-07, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Are you okay? You seem to be having mood swings as of late.
03-14-07, 01:30 PM
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Minion - 1. One who is esteemed or favored. 2. a. An obsequious follower or dependent. b. A subordinate official.
The only judgement that this word constitutes name calling is coming from you, Kal.
The only judgement that this word constitutes name calling is coming from you, Kal.
03-14-07, 01:35 PM
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kalliergo is a Forester minion!
kalliergo is a Forester minion!
kalliergo is a Forester minion!
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
03-14-07, 01:36 PM
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I never claimed I did the work for this particular piece. In fact, I've only skimmed it.
What's your point?
He apparently thinks he was accused of stating that one lateral roadway position is proved by study to be either safer or more dangerous than another.
He denies ever stating that, and explains why.
What's the problem?
He apparently thinks he was accused of stating that one lateral roadway position is proved by study to be either safer or more dangerous than another.
He denies ever stating that, and explains why.
What's the problem?
But then notice this paragraph from the link:
This writer has obviously read the reports. He is either so blinded by his psychological condition (whatever it may be), or he is willing to lie his way to his desired conclusion. Up to 1980 or so, club cyclists, with whom I rode a great deal, were almost the only American cycling population that exhibited general vehicular-cycling behavior. I did not learn it from them, for I had already brought the idea from my English cycling, but American club cycling behavior enabled me to formalize my descriptions of that behavior. Later, I measured the behavior, on the road, in traffic, of several cycling groups: club cyclists; general public adult cyclists in Davis, Palo Alto, Berkeley, Sunnyvale; students completing my Effective Cycling classes from ages 8 to mature adults. Club cyclist and student cyclist scores averaged about 95%; general public adult cycling populations averaged about a failing 60%. The accident rates reported in several studies of general public and of club cyclists showed that club cyclists had car-bike collision rates only 75% of those of the general cycling public. The reports of cycling club accidents showed that the strongest factor in reducing accidents was the first four years of club cycling experience, which correlates well with learning vehicular cycling behavior. At no time did I ever compare the unmeasured cycling behavior of 8-year-old cyclists with the unmeasured cycling behavior of adults; I compared only the actual measured behavior of the groups.
The correlation is club riding experience to fewer accidents. The causation he assumes is that it is the VC concepts of club riding that cause the fewer accidents.
One moment, he denies claiming a scientific basis for supporting lane position, but the next he uses faulty scientific reasoning to support VC, including.... lane position.
03-14-07, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
He must have felt threatened, otherwise he would have simply ignored us; that means we've got some traction. The private - rather than public - response is just cowardly.
So HH, you gleefully created this thread, I suspect because it would help support your wacky theories and allow you to make personal attacks on ILTB, but you shot yourself in the foot again, because all you have done is proven to everyone who posts here that the emperor has no clothes and is downright peeved that the unwashed masses in an internet forum have the audacity to point it out.
To everyone who posts here using independent thinking, creativity and innovation, keep up the good work, it seems certain people are noticing.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
Last edited by chipcom; 03-14-07 at 01:47 PM.
03-14-07, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by zeytoun
The poster you responded to was speaking about this particular piece.
03-14-07, 01:42 PM
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Okay - here we have it -did he or didn't he- -is he or isn't he- -are you are or aren't you-
Let's stick to a discussion of the issues discussed on Forester's site - name calling and second-guessing are going to lead to a world of pain.
Everyone cool off - breath deeply - it's only a forum - it's only ascii.
Let's stick to a discussion of the issues discussed on Forester's site - name calling and second-guessing are going to lead to a world of pain.
Everyone cool off - breath deeply - it's only a forum - it's only ascii.
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03-14-07, 01:43 PM
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your avatar is scaring me.
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
03-14-07, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rando
your avatar is scaring me.
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03-14-07, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by skanking biker
...he talks in circles.
03-14-07, 01:45 PM
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me