I_Bike

I'm no clown...

N_C

Holy ****! What a jerk!

JF responded to what I posted to Diane about natural fear of being attacked from behind. I love his response to what I wrote. How is what I posted a version of denying the cyclist inferiority phobia? What was I denying? He more or less accused me of stating because of our natural fears cyclists are inferior to others. Where does he come off doing that? I don't mind if anyone disagrees with me, but to say I am denying something, when he doesn't know & is making assumptions with out proof is ridiculous.

It seems he is denying humans have a natural fear & instincts, which I'm guessing he views as one of our short comings, of being attacked from behind. There is nothing wrong with that natural fear. Humans have been dealing with it for centuries. In times of conflict & war it comes in quite handy & gives us a 6th sense so we can defend ourselves.

Is JF so perfect that he has no shortcomings, unlike the rest of us? Or is he just as human as everyone else he just doesn't want to admit it or his shortcomings?

ILTB, never mind me asking you what he did to piss you off. I now see why you don't like him. But I still think you should let it go, the jerk is not worth your time.

N_C

No, don't lock it.

N_C

Ok, Iv'e gotta ask. WTF is: pwn3d? Someone please tell me.

rando

I just re-read JF's rants. it's interesting how he doesn't say much about not agreeing with ADC's autocentric views, he just keeps saying he was not paid.

I-Like-To-Bike

Put a sock on it. You've been singing that tune about eveyone who doesn't fall into line with the obsequious mole and his master since the first week you posted anything here.

Brian Ratliff

https://www.answers.com/pwn3d?nafid=3

I kinda got it's meansing from context, but here's the straight dope.

I_Bike

I won't - I'm just going to let you guys tear each other up and watch - it's much more fun.

chipcom 

My apologies, you are right...I coulda swore I saw your name on it.

I don't agree that ILTB has a personal vendetta unless JF also has a personal vendetta, since he saw fit to 'out' him on his web site. I think both have very little love for each other, but out of strong disagreement in positions and methods. ILTB treats everyone, even JF, the same...it's just his personality, IMO. If you remember, ILTB and I had a pretty rocky start here in BF, but I'm not as thin-skinned as some and figured out that we agreed on many things - and he took the initiative to extend the olive branch, not I...which is a sign of character in my book. Indeed, if I recall correctly I was defending YOU when I first got into it with ILTB, go figure.

Edit: What I said about JF taking notice stands, obviously. One does not make the effort to respond to things they consider meaningless or harmless. I wonder if he realizes that his response will probably intensify the debate, not end it.

I-Like-To-Bike

I thought the K-man was going to ignore all the posters who offended his obsequious sensitivities. Now he wants to lock 'em up. Better fix his ignore button.

What's the policy on moles reporting BF content for posting/comment on other web sites?

I-Like-To-Bike

I'm sure you are correct in your assumption.

chipcom 

I want to have your children!!!

I-Like-To-Bike

Your pig is starting to get wings now. It isn't a question of liking or disliking. The issue is the use of blatantly distorted data and fabricated data in biased and sophmoric risk analyses to "sell"/promote the Forester Brand Program; both by the Master and his obsequious followers.

I-Like-To-Bike

That's about the size of it. Just the facts, ChipcomMan, just the facts.

I don't discriminate. I treat all Jack Donkeys the same, regardless of race, creed, or national origin

JRA

Exactly. Not only should this thread not be locked, it should be a sticky. There will be attempts to sabotage this thread. The offending posts should be removed and the thread should be allowed to continue. John Forester deserves nothing less.

Ed Holland

I was surprised to see that I was quoted on the Forester website on the issue of Cyclist inferiority phobia.

My point was missed, IMO, which was that there's no need to over analyse the way cyclists feel about riding on the road, and how that is linked to the uptake of cycling. Of course new cyclists feel vulnerable and insecure in traffic. This is not an issue that is solved by anything except riding experience.

JF's rebuttal manages to drag bike path/lane/way politics into this, which is something I never intended to invoke in my posting:

Ed

KnhoJ

On the bright side, as the attack becomes formally organized, it's focusing more and more on specific battle threads. Only a month or two ago, it was tough to come up with a thread these guys couldn't derail into a fight. But now, with the holy war fully established and attracting some actual offsite strategic discussion, these incursions are beginning to focus on strategic hot spots. The "Cyclists have only themselves to blame" thread is practically begging to get derailed, but it's gone totally ignored and has been chugging along productively for a whole week! With results, too!
I like these moles. I hope they continue to focus the war into a few hot threads and let the rest of us discuss advocacy and safety productively.

I-Like-To-Bike

This is typical JF "rebuttal" technique; provide the quote but respond to his own interpretation or strawman argument. Fools some of the people, some of the time; fools the obsequious fools all the time.

N_C

Agreed. His data seems to be according to him or his experiences.

It is fine if if a person writes about personal experiences or how they see things based on that. But they should not try to indoctrinate others into to believing the same thing based on what has happened or because of their opinions. It should not be used as material for teaching.

I highly doubt JF has ridden bike or even driven a motor vehicle in all areas of the country. So how can he assume what applies in his area applies in mine? Or Burlington, Iowa for that matter. If anything ILTB your area & mine have more in common the JF's & mine, or JF's & yours. Simply because we're both in Iowa, we are subject to the same state laws & DOT policies & probably very similar county & local laws & issues as well.

I now see why he was not voted director or president of the LAB. If I use anything he wrote in his book Essential Cycling I will be very careful to seperate his personal opinions from the actual unbiased facts.

Ed Holland

Not me

KnhoJ

I'd like to take a moment to nominate ILTB for the position of Bike Forums Curmudgeon.

I-Like-To-Bike

Say that with a smile (or at least a smilie ), Pahdner!

JRA

I like the moles, too. They're entertaining. I've been a moderator on another site for many years and I find the dynamics of internet propaganda wars fascinating. I wish I had mod powers here (without any responsibility) so I could be even more entertained.

chipcom 

That is the hard part...figuring out where the facts end and the bias begins. He intermingles them quite well, as any good politician or con man does.

bigpedaler

i read through the Forester post in detail, sometimes twice in more arcane areas; this is what i gleaned from it:

1. 'vehicular cyclists' are good, happy, and safe, by practicing this 'art' of riding with some ethereal skill;
2. 'bicycle advocates' are anti-car crybabies who want to be pre-eminent in the travel hierarchy;
3. critics and nay-sayers are either unskilled speed-readers who missed his salient points, or spin doctors who lie to suit their agenda;
4. the aforementioned crybabies are riddled with an unnatural phobia of being run over from behind that no one else in the world experiences or suffers from;
5. in the author's own experience and empirical testing, 'club cyclists' scored 95% proficient in road skills, where the average adult 'failed' with 60% -- yet, this great disparity only resulted in an accident reduction among clubbers of 25%.

my conclusions from this:
i do agree that we have, and should exercise, our right to the road, keeping our safety paramount;
i do not agree that bike paths are a 100% bad idea -- they have their place, but not all over the place!
i do not agree that his point of view is the only true and accurate one -- he is one person (who denies his affiliation with pro-car organizations who openly parade his name on their own websites like a champion for their cause); thus, his own veracity and 'authority' status is a house of cards.
i do not agree that many cyclists have a crippling fear of the rear-end accident; it is a necessary caution, owing to the ignorance and carelessness of many motorists;
i do agree that knowledge and skill HELP cyclists stay safer on the roads, but it is not the 'magic bullet' to eliminate the problem -- comprehensive education of drivers will do more!

far too many drivers are marginally educated in the pursuit of their licenses, and even more poorly regulated in their use; it is a classic example of "that which is not directly opposed is condoned".

my home state has enacted the "share the road" campaign, putting signs up in supposedly strategic locations in cities and towns (my opinion? put them beneath every speed limit sign!), which has done little of any real value. i put forth the suggestion to both the state and the local riding club that hi-viz yellow vests be produced for sale to cyclists that contain the sign and message, clearly visible on the back -- after a year, no notice. i've argued with cops about the traffic laws, and can produce evidence upon demand to support my stance. there is a cross-section of the city's finest who know and agree; one even surprised me by referring to "idiots on the road".

where do we go from here? speaking for myself -- forward, one pedal stroke at a time; and woe be the motorist who carelessly lets me see his plate after 'buzzing' me while i ride safely and according to the law....