kcham16

seriously, are all of the riders on the TdF on 'roids? here's the deal: just be straight up. what do you think... yes or no? for arguments' sake, i believe they are. i wanted Floyd to be innocent, but every time he opens his mouth, he just seems more and more guilty. also, all of those guys' bodies look exactly the same. and if some of them get busted for doping, how do you explain the rest of the 'non-dopers' physiques?

I_Bike

No, I don't think so. I think a few have gotten all the press and made it appear so. I think many are honest, well drug-tested atheletes.

Hezz

Unfortunately, a large percentage of people are dishonest and these always think that everyone else is. I don't know what this percentage is (there have been psychological studies but I don't remember numbers) but lets just guess for arguments sake that it is around fourty to fifty percent of population is less than honest.

This would just be a random sample. Since people with highly competitive personalities might be slightly higher due to slightly higher narsisistic tendencies. So lets say that sixty percent of athletes who would be in a position to maybe win with a little help from drugs might be willing to risk it.

My guess is that an elite few at the top because of thier genetics and personality can win without any doping.

Of all the racers in the pros only a certain percentage can really be considered close to these elite top athletes. This group that is close to the top are the most likely to take the risk to win because it is just within thier grasp. But there are also conseqences so lets say of the fifty to sixty percent of this group who might dope only fourty percent would really risk it.

So then we have a large number of riders that always finish behind the contender group. They don't see themselfs as GC contenders but support riders who can pull off a good ride on a good day. But never be a GC condender. These guys aren't as likely to dope. Maybe ten percent of these guys which make up the largest percentage of total riders would be willing to dope. But most would probably not be willing to risk thier job for a GC goal that is out of thier reach.

I am not going to do math with weighted percentages but when you look at all of these groups I would say that maybe at most twenty percent of the total field might be doping.

Well that kind of a guesstimate is about the closest you will ever come to knowing how many dope. So it's pointless to mentally labor over it. What we just need are better testing methods and to realize that if the rider passes the test they are assumed clean. And thats as good as we ever need anything to be. We have to accept some ambiguity.

harlond

The relationship between doping and dishonesty is not obvious to me. Also, the notion that domestiques don't have an incentive to dope is not borne out by experience. Consider Frankie Andreu's admission.

Hezz

It is questionable if there is a direct relationship between general honesty and doping. Since a high level racer may feel pressure from the culture and to make money to support his family past when he can't race anymore. Also, some coaches that may think they are GC potential may pressure some cyclists to risk it for the possibility of winning big.

So the argument above was really just an example at how you might make a semi-intelligent estimate. But of course it is frought with errors.

I saw Elvis

All - no, some maybe, which ones? wish I knew. Cycling is one of the most tested sports there is, alongside this there is I'm sorry to say a drug culture in some places in our sport - but I guess there is in most sports at some level of competition, just I don't care about other sports. On top of this there are lazy journalists who like a sensationalist story that sells papers and doesn't involve any effort to write and there are investigating magistrates who want to see their name in print. Oh and IMHO (which I stress is MHO) a useless international body - the UCI.
On the good side, those that take drugs must now start to see that getting caught affects the Euro in their pocket, as sponsors get cold feet. Also the culture is changing as sponsors, teams and young riders start to take a stand.
Will we ever be drug free? Will any sport? Will society as a whole? Ohh err I'm getting all deep and meaningful - better go out for a ride.

Blaireau

Yes they are all doping. Any pro will tell you this "off the record"....And many have said so publicly in interviews in books, etc...
Why people buy the line "most are clean, its only a few bad apples" is beyond me. Then again, I don't understand why people believe in adverstising...

gabdy

I don't think they are all on drugs, just the better riders.
Seriously though, not too many people on this site would know. They would just be speculating based on information we all receive via the media etc.

gabdy

Really? Any pro would tell you off the record? How many Pro's have told you?

Seriously, if they all are doping then technically the field is even right. So the best rider still wins.

Blaireau

A couple. but I can't tell you, its off the record Regardless, there are a plethora of books by trainers, riders who explain in great detail how its done. Further, there are quotes from the likes of Anquetil not confessing, but defending and boasting about drug use...


That argument does not hold water. There is no even field when everyone dopes; it becomes a competition between chemists.... not just who gets the best drugs and the best dosage, but who can find the best masking agents, etc.... Not all dope doctors were created equal...

harlond

Exactly. The insistence on treating doping as a cheating problem instead of a medical problem is really hurting cycling.

Dworkshop1

i think people definately have the natural ability to win without drugs. with that being said, i wouldn't be suprised if all of them were on a physical enhancement training supplement that in the next say 5 years, will be banned and become "illegal".
in all sports, athletes get the best of the best in people around them who will help them be the best they can be, which means helping them with performance supplements. Physicians will continue to come up with new forms of "steroids" and sports leagues will catch on as time goes by, and derm them illegal when they see that its really helping athletes. its an inevitable cat and mouse type game that has been going on for a long time, and will continue to go on.
the only new "ingrediant" thrown in, is the media. now that ESPN and other sports stations act like they are CNN, and give continuous news coverage 24 hours a day, they need things to talk about. and with records being broken and new grounds being covered, every story can come back to "well was he on steroids? is that why hes winning" so now it has become a neverending media story that they will definately, not let go.

edit: gadby and harold- thats a good point, because in every sport, you can bet like roughly 60-95% of players use something that is or will be considered a steroid, so why doesnt the media shut the hell up already and get back to sports. the very nature of sports is one-upping your opponent, and they act so suprised. it should be even more of an incentive to a non-doping athlete to beat the doping athletes by training harder and being even more devoted to your sport. plus, im sure in a lot of sports, maybe not biking though, players know alot of the players who are using enhancers. they could easily come up with a good testing system that wouldnt let anything by, and some sports have better ones than others. the problem is what i brought up earlier, physicians keep inventing new supplements, and leagues cant keep up, so every year they will add to list of banned substances, and this will go on FOREVER.

gabdy

I honestly believe they should allow people to use whatever drugs they want. Isn't using a drip cheating? Your body can't replenish fast enough so we use synthetic ways of replenishing.

Even if people use a huge amount of drugs, I honestly believe that someone who does not use drugs can still beat them.

squeakywheel

No, best doctor wins.

Blaireau

+1

Rincewind8

I read somewhere, that doping gives you about a 10% advantage (endurance, power,...). That is huge. If that number is anywhere close to the truth, then I don't think any non-doping athlete has a chance at winning. This makes me sad...

spatz

Doctors are part of the "team" are they not? One has to wonder how long before lawyers are also listed on team rosters. Professional cycling is entertainment. If the athletes were concerned about the lack of fair play I am sure they and their directors/sponsors would be making waves, which isn't happening. People don't watch sitcoms and then wonder if the camera man/editors adjusted the actors skin tones... enjoy the show, then turn off the TV and go out and ride your bike in the real world.

Dworkshop1

have FAITH my man! 10% is nothing really. a naturally gifted athlete who trains to the max, would just have to train that much harder to overcome that disadvantage. im saying that with a optimistic attitude towards athletes and with knowing that anything is possible. i can promise without knowing for sure, that there has been many winners in the olympics and tour de france that have won with natural training and supplements against people who have been using "steroids". and like i said above, and others did. they basically all use an enhancer that will be banned eventually. your phisician comes up with a compound that gives you a huge advantage, you win the event, then the league will come in and see what you have been taking maybe a year or 2 down the road, then that compound will be banned. and on and on. but with that being said, there IS naturally gifted people who can get to that level of ability without performance enhancers. the problem is, is that now everything is "tainted" by the media and skeptics.

Horse

...

Blaireau

+1

WishYouWasMe

There are many high school athletes taking performance enhancers who never become anything great case closed.

Keith99

10 % is huge. If there was a drug that gave a 10% performance enhancement then I went to school with a couple dozen guys who could have been Olympic contenders. And my college did not even give athletic scholarships.

Blue Jays

I believe the majority of riders in the TDF peloton are clean.

Blaireau

I believe the majority of riders in the TdF peloton would -- privately -- laugh at this statement!

mortimer99

problem is all drugs dont effect people the same, so some guy that dopes may get 4% and another may get 10%.