JackJohn

Is it possible that a Worksop 1977 Raleigh Professional MKV has brazed-on cable guides on the TT? Never seen this before, until today with this one found on a local ad. Any idea?

Kabuki12

My 1978 Raleigh Professional has them .

Pcampeau

I just reviewed your old thread regarding your 78 Pro. Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m not seeing brazed on cable guides along the top tube.

Pcampeau

The cable guides were likely added whenever the bike was repainted to red. It does otherwise appear to be a Professional MKV. Nice frame!

Kabuki12

you are correct I misread the post , talking about on top of the BB shell. Sorry for the confusion.

JackJohn

Thanks!
Do you mean clients over the years bringing the frame back at Raleigh for repainting and having the cable guides added?
Otherwise, how likely was it to have a “customization” done at/by Raleigh at production time?
i admit being clueless on this…

Pcampeau

As far as I know Carlton built Raleigh Pros were never customized. Customized frames were from the SBDU, but you say you’re asking about a Worksop frame? These guides would likely have been added later by some other builder or frame repair person.

JackJohn

ok, clear, txs!

repechage

The frame number would answer much.

this does not look like a factory refinish, I have not read of that either.
Small firms like Masi in Carlsbad did, and Schwinn in Chicago did.

JackJohn

WM700xxxx
the frame is in France…

daka

1987?

Doug Fattic 

Back the 70's and 80's I added, subtracted braze-ons all the time when a frame came in for a new paint job. It was standard procedure not to expect a good paint job to last a long time. They were tools to be used and refreshed when necessary. Like several others have already mentioned, they were likely added when the frame was repainted. If they were racers, they had their frames repainted after a few years for sure.

One more thing, I've visited the SBDU works in Ilkston in 1977. What I recall was about 5 guys making the frames - sorta similar to how Bill Davidson or Serotta made frames but instead of one guy doing it all, they had a team approach. One guy making forks, another brazing the down tube/head tube and a 3rd doing frame alignment (yes frame alignment on 753 frames). I have witnessed that personally and have pictures to prove it.

JackJohn

thanks Doug!!! your point confirms the most likely is that the frame has been repainted and braze-ons added then.

On one hand it’s a shame the frame looses its originality, but on the other that could be part of its life story over the years. Of course the story would be nicer if it belonged to a racer, but not sure if there’s a way to know .
Btw, interesting witnessing on Ilkeston production, hopefully we’ll se your pictures someday

gugie 

[QUOTE=JackJohn;23091456]
On one hand it’s a shame the frame looses its originality.../QUOTE]

What's the shame? In all likelihood the "new" paint job was far superior to what the Raleigh factory sprayed it with.
Also, if it were, say a classic mink blue and silver paint job, one of thousands just like it, how original is that? Painting it a different color gives it originality*

But what would you expect the Bike Butcher of Portland to say?

*the quality of being novel or unusual.

Ex Pres 

What about this internal TT routing added to my [previously owned] '78?

JackJohn

ok, found guilty of not mastering all nuances of the English language, should have said “original” as in “referring to something that existed at the beginning of a process or activity, or the characteristics that something had when it began or was made”.

romperrr 

I'm not gonna lie, I always liked the look of internal routing on high-end frames. Looks a bit off on some of the mid-tier offerings eg Motobecane and Raleigh

non-fixie 

That was an interesting time to be there, I presume. TI Raleigh were on the verge of world domination: 8 TdF stages won that year, 10 in 1978.

You didn't happen to run into Jan Legrand when you were there, by any chance?

JackJohn

I was thinking of going for the frame and maybe removing the three braze-ons, how hard would it be to saw them off and file the residual material on the tube surface?
Then repainting it in period correct mink blue color…
Any suggestion welcome…

repechage

I have with “black wire” as found at the hardware big box store, wired them up and apply heat to the braze on, when it is dull red tug, it will go from attached to removed very quick.
even with brass. Clean up on the tube is from there pretty easy, much safer I think than sawing, filing them off.

JackJohn

ok, txs for the tip!

JackJohn

I shall start a new thread to discuss the “team” vs “steel blue” livery…

Doug Fattic 

No, I went there because I had heard from Reynolds that every American had failed the 753 test. In the beginning one had to summit a complete frame out of 753 to demonstrate one could braze it properly and have it end up in alignment in order to be able to buy 753 tubing. The methods commonly used in the UK at the time were pretty crude so one couldn't use those methods to build a frame out of thin walled heat treated 753. I wanted to know how Raleigh at the SBDU works made their frames (if there were any special techniques) that I should know before attempting the test myself. I made an appointment to meet with Gerald O'Donovan the boss but fortunately I was detained on the way and as a result late for my appointment. So when I got there O'Donovan was out for lunch (or something). Not wanting to waste my time sitting in the office (nobody was in there) I went over to the workshop (it was in a separate building) and asked the foreman if I could hang out there waiting for O'Donovan. I spent a good 45 minutes seeing how they did things before the boss returned and chased me out. What I learned was that the methods I used in principle were suitable for making frames out of thin walled heat treated tubing. There still isn't a week that goes by 46 years later where I realize how fortunate I was to learn how to build frames at Ellis Briggs in Shipley West Yorkshire. Their building methods emphasized quality so their procedures would work just fine making a straight frame. Except it was necessary to use silver instead of brass.

Doug Fattic 

I wouldn't. The heat to attach those top tube brake cable guides distorts the tube a bit. If you take them off you will be able to see that distortion when you sight down the tube. Well I suppose that if you put clamps on to hold the cable housing that will help hide that distortion. By the end of the 70's everyone wanted to have top tube cable guides on their frames whether new or being repainted. This frame reflects that common journey.

I also wouldn't suggest a DIY method to remove the bosses. I've taught hundreds of people how to build frames and only the top percentage of them would be able to remove the bosses mechanically without damaging that very thin top tube. The chance of making a mistake is high. And besides you aren't likely to have the right files an emery cloth to do it properly anyway.

JackJohn

ok, I see your point, thanks for the info!