Groupset tiers and diminishing returns
#26
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But you brought up costs in the opening post, and that makes sense - you can't consider one in isolation of the other. If costs were truly irrelevant, you would not have asked the question -- you would've gotten D/A.
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Yeah, saving a hundred grams on a groupset is really pointless (exception being top tier chains which are a hair more efficient) in terms of what it does. That's worth seconds up an actual mountain.
But when I found discounted DA shifters and derailleurs last year I grabbed them anyway and upgraded from 105, so do as I say, not as I do. My excuse was the 105s were scuffed up in a crash and the FD was trashed and replaced with a DA one, and the scuffed shifters and mismatched gruppo looked plain unsightly.
Eh. In my defense, I don't have any other expensive tastes except bikes, which are pretty tame all things considered. There's no rational reason to buy DA over Ultegra. Nevertheless...
But when I found discounted DA shifters and derailleurs last year I grabbed them anyway and upgraded from 105, so do as I say, not as I do. My excuse was the 105s were scuffed up in a crash and the FD was trashed and replaced with a DA one, and the scuffed shifters and mismatched gruppo looked plain unsightly.
Eh. In my defense, I don't have any other expensive tastes except bikes, which are pretty tame all things considered. There's no rational reason to buy DA over Ultegra. Nevertheless...
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Anyway, thanks to more useful posts I'm realising that D/A is not likely to be of much benefit for me.
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FYI... as to less durability of top tier.
I have Red eTap that was installed in 2016. It has almost 30,000 miles. Obviously i've replaced the chain and brake pads many times, but I just recently changed the cassette last month.All the rest is from the original 2016 groupset.
I have Red eTap that was installed in 2016. It has almost 30,000 miles. Obviously i've replaced the chain and brake pads many times, but I just recently changed the cassette last month.All the rest is from the original 2016 groupset.
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FYI... as to less durability of top tier.
I have Red eTap that was installed in 2016. It has almost 30,000 miles. Obviously i've replaced the chain and brake pads many times, but I just recently changed the cassette last month.All the rest is from the original 2016 groupset.
I have Red eTap that was installed in 2016. It has almost 30,000 miles. Obviously i've replaced the chain and brake pads many times, but I just recently changed the cassette last month.All the rest is from the original 2016 groupset.
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Now that "cost no object" has been dealt with, it looks like you are in the same position as most of us, trying to decide if DA is worth the substantial premium over Ultegra. With cost as part of the equation, I've generally settled for Ultegra unless I'm buying used components. DA is obviously lighter, better finished and other than possibly titanium cogs, no evidence it is less durable. In a nutshell, it is better. IMO however, the price difference exceeds any qualitative difference. I think this may be intentional, Shimano choosing to position DA as aspirational rather than just another step up the product tier. Cost no object=DuraAce. Not a 1%er=Ultegra. Don't know if this is the same with SRAM or Campy.
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Now that "cost no object" has been dealt with, it looks like you are in the same position as most of us, trying to decide if DA is worth the substantial premium over Ultegra. With cost as part of the equation, I've generally settled for Ultegra unless I'm buying used components. DA is obviously lighter, better finished and other than possibly titanium cogs, no evidence it is less durable. In a nutshell, it is better. IMO however, the price difference exceeds any qualitative difference. I think this may be intentional, Shimano choosing to position DA as aspirational rather than just another step up the product tier. Cost no object=DuraAce. Not a 1%er=Ultegra. Don't know if this is the same with SRAM or Campy.
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Yeah, a 30t wouldn't work for me anymore either.
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Dude, you’re the one who repeatedly brought up the cost issue, and that is totally legit - it comes up all the time around here, and it’s a smart question.… No one is implying that you can’t afford Dura Ace.
Whether you acknowledge it or not, every single spending decision you make is a trade-off, and we always weigh the costs versus the benefits. That’s why I drive a Honda instead of a Porsche, even though I could “afford“ the latter.
Last edited by Koyote; 09-05-21 at 03:11 PM.
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So you went from thanking me for the warranty info, to snarking at me for not making a useful contribution. Geez, you’re welcome.
Dude, you’re the one who repeatedly brought up the cost issue, and that is totally legit - it comes up all the time around here, and it’s a smart question.… No one is implying that you can’t afford Dura Ace. I mean, if you think about it, I bet you could afford a Porsche, or maybe even a Ferrari. I could, too. I can put my hands on that kind of cash in a couple days without breaking a sweat. And so what? So why don’t we drive such cars? Because the cost is not worth the benefit, at least to me. Every bloody spending decision comes down to just that. Choosing a groupset is no different.
Dude, you’re the one who repeatedly brought up the cost issue, and that is totally legit - it comes up all the time around here, and it’s a smart question.… No one is implying that you can’t afford Dura Ace. I mean, if you think about it, I bet you could afford a Porsche, or maybe even a Ferrari. I could, too. I can put my hands on that kind of cash in a couple days without breaking a sweat. And so what? So why don’t we drive such cars? Because the cost is not worth the benefit, at least to me. Every bloody spending decision comes down to just that. Choosing a groupset is no different.
As for snarking at you? You need to take a good look in the mirror. Your first contribution to this thread was a blatant snark. You know I've been on a lot of forums in my time, but this place is quite special (not aimed at you exclusively).
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Top tier group sets look way cooler on the bike.
Tim
Tim
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Sorry I didn't cross reference your posts well enough! One was actually useful. The others not so much. Cost vs benefit is obviously important. But if you don't know what the benefits are then how are you supposed to make that call?
As for snarking at you? You need to take a good look in the mirror. Your first contribution to this thread was a blatant snark. You know I've been on a lot of forums in my time, but this place is quite special (not aimed at you exclusively).
As for snarking at you? You need to take a good look in the mirror. Your first contribution to this thread was a blatant snark. You know I've been on a lot of forums in my time, but this place is quite special (not aimed at you exclusively).
#38
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I buy based on hood shape/comfort new new DA Di2 might be the best thing on the market but I’ve never gotten along with Shimano hoods. That drives me to post 2015 campy and SRAM I like both but if I had to choose just one for general riding I’d choose SRAM. Since I wouldn’t notice the gains that SR/DA/Red would generate I’d probably just go Force AXS, or Chorus/Record.
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That's debatable. But then I'm not into bling just for the sake of it. But I do think Campag looks cool - just because of the history and style. Shimano and Sram don't quite have that same appeal. Mmmmm.....maybe I should just treat myself to a top end Campag set.
I hadn't really thought much about Campy, but a quick look at their Super Record Electronic set looks pretty awesome! Tempting for sure.
I hadn't really thought much about Campy, but a quick look at their Super Record Electronic set looks pretty awesome! Tempting for sure.
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Welll .... first off, "Cost is no object" is a phrase with a Very specific meaning .... and not the meaning yuo gave it.
You might better have said "cost is not an important limiting factor compared to performance," or some such, which actuially reflects the situation you are describing.
(As an aside, I built up my second CF wunderbike with 105 because I had one with Ultegra and another with 105, and I didn't see enough of an upgrade in performance ---part performance, not my performance, which would have been about the weight or absolute efficiency--between the groups. I could have saved eight ounces?
That is thirteen seconds off of the biggest U.S. climb for a climber who could climb that mountain in the first place ...... )
And that is my answer, I guess. Right now if I were to build another road bike and possibly a gravel bike, I would go with Ultegra DI.
I cannot believe that DA is more robust than Ultegra by a third .... I see that more as a sales gimmick for non-racing or non-pro racing people who are on the edge about buying DA--"You know, of course, that DA has a fifty percent longer warranty, right?" Fact isd, racers don't care That much--crit racers might buy down because they expect to crash at lower levels, and road racers are probably buying DA cassettes knowing they wear out every season because they want to be as light as possible (or at the UCI limit for UCI-sanctioned events.)
Shimano knows that a warranty really only covers defective materials or assembly at the factory .... the Shimano factory, you are SOL if the bike manufacturer messed up installing it---and that materials and workmanship claims would be really hard to prove.
As for shifting, pretty sure the speed of electricity is the same no matter how much you spend.
There used to be a chart about which group set parts to buy for max value .... hold on ..... Shimano Road Components ? Where to Spend Your Money ? Art's SLO Cyclery
More than minorly outdated but make of it what you will ..... the suggestions then were:
Rear Derailleur: 105 5800
Front Derailleur: Dura Ace 9000
Shifters/Brake Levers: Dura Ace 9001 or 105 5800 depending on budget
Cassette: Ultegra 6800
Chain: Ultegra 6800
Crankset: Ultegra 6800
Brakeset: 105 5800
You might better have said "cost is not an important limiting factor compared to performance," or some such, which actuially reflects the situation you are describing.
(As an aside, I built up my second CF wunderbike with 105 because I had one with Ultegra and another with 105, and I didn't see enough of an upgrade in performance ---part performance, not my performance, which would have been about the weight or absolute efficiency--between the groups. I could have saved eight ounces?
That is thirteen seconds off of the biggest U.S. climb for a climber who could climb that mountain in the first place ...... )
And that is my answer, I guess. Right now if I were to build another road bike and possibly a gravel bike, I would go with Ultegra DI.
I cannot believe that DA is more robust than Ultegra by a third .... I see that more as a sales gimmick for non-racing or non-pro racing people who are on the edge about buying DA--"You know, of course, that DA has a fifty percent longer warranty, right?" Fact isd, racers don't care That much--crit racers might buy down because they expect to crash at lower levels, and road racers are probably buying DA cassettes knowing they wear out every season because they want to be as light as possible (or at the UCI limit for UCI-sanctioned events.)
Shimano knows that a warranty really only covers defective materials or assembly at the factory .... the Shimano factory, you are SOL if the bike manufacturer messed up installing it---and that materials and workmanship claims would be really hard to prove.
As for shifting, pretty sure the speed of electricity is the same no matter how much you spend.
There used to be a chart about which group set parts to buy for max value .... hold on ..... Shimano Road Components ? Where to Spend Your Money ? Art's SLO Cyclery
More than minorly outdated but make of it what you will ..... the suggestions then were:
Rear Derailleur: 105 5800
Front Derailleur: Dura Ace 9000
Shifters/Brake Levers: Dura Ace 9001 or 105 5800 depending on budget
Cassette: Ultegra 6800
Chain: Ultegra 6800
Crankset: Ultegra 6800
Brakeset: 105 5800
#41
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#43
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Welll .... first off, "Cost is no object" is a phrase with a Very specific meaning .... and not the meaning yuo gave it.
You might better have said "cost is not an important limiting factor compared to performance," or some such, which actuially reflects the situation you are describing.
You might better have said "cost is not an important limiting factor compared to performance," or some such, which actuially reflects the situation you are describing.
I was just trying to get some clarity as to the pros and cons. But the thread has got totally sidetracked by people who, reading between the lines, are clearly a bit fragile about the "money no object" part.
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#45
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Okay whatever. What I meant was (and I thought it was clear enough) I can afford a top level bicycle groupset, but I'm not paying 40% more for one unless it offers a worthwhile advantage over the next tier down and certainly not if it actually has any disadvantages.
I was just trying to get some clarity as to the pros and cons. But the thread has got totally sidetracked by people who, reading between the lines, are clearly a bit fragile about the "money no object" part.
I was just trying to get some clarity as to the pros and cons. But the thread has got totally sidetracked by people who, reading between the lines, are clearly a bit fragile about the "money no object" part.
I understood what you were getting at .... not that I or probably anyone else cares what you can afford (and for cyclists, "afford" means "I have so much cash I could buy a bike company" to some, and "I am perfectly willing to sell a kidney for Zipp wheels .... I gave 170 pints of blood for the DA front derailleur," to others) but I wanted to point out that not everyone was Just mindlessly nitpicking ... they were nitpicking For Cause.
If you make that sort of textual mistake on BF you will be crucified ... and since you know that, they figured you wanted it, and were helping you live out you BF BDSM humiliation fantasy.. You should thank them.
I tried to address the value issue in the rest of the post.
Best way to read BF, IMO, is to pretend there are dozens of laughing emojis sprinkled through every post .... and to understand that a lot of posts are really saying " I am a bigger butt-head than you, sucker."
Either way, less argument and more amusement.
#46
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Again not something I've really given that much thought. My own performance level is more 105 than D/A for sure!
#47
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This is BF. Nothing you say here matters, and everything you say here will be misquoted, misinterpreted (often deliberately) and distorted so that people can make cheap jokes and think they are superior because of it .....
I understood what you were getting at .... not that I or probably anyone else cares what you can afford (and for cyclists, "afford" means "I have so much cash I could buy a bike company" to some, and "I am perfectly willing to sell a kidney for Zipp wheels .... I gave 170 pints of blood for the DA front derailleur," to others) but I wanted to point out that not everyone was Just mindlessly nitpicking ... they were nitpicking For Cause.
If you make that sort of textual mistake on BF you will be crucified ... and since you know that, they figured you wanted it, and were helping you live out you BF BDSM humiliation fantasy.. You should thank them.
I tried to address the value issue in the rest of the post.
Best way to read BF, IMO, is to pretend there are dozens of laughing emojis sprinkled through every post .... and to understand that a lot of posts are really saying " I am a bigger butt-head than you, sucker."
Either way, less argument and more amusement.
I understood what you were getting at .... not that I or probably anyone else cares what you can afford (and for cyclists, "afford" means "I have so much cash I could buy a bike company" to some, and "I am perfectly willing to sell a kidney for Zipp wheels .... I gave 170 pints of blood for the DA front derailleur," to others) but I wanted to point out that not everyone was Just mindlessly nitpicking ... they were nitpicking For Cause.
If you make that sort of textual mistake on BF you will be crucified ... and since you know that, they figured you wanted it, and were helping you live out you BF BDSM humiliation fantasy.. You should thank them.
I tried to address the value issue in the rest of the post.
Best way to read BF, IMO, is to pretend there are dozens of laughing emojis sprinkled through every post .... and to understand that a lot of posts are really saying " I am a bigger butt-head than you, sucker."
Either way, less argument and more amusement.
#48
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..I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?...
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?...
#49
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I'm inclined to agree. I have two bikes with Ultegra groupsets, but I suspect I'd be just as happy with 105. Not even thinking about Di2 or DuraAce. But then, I've never owned a car with automatic transmission either. I'm very content with standard shifting in my car, and mechanical shifting on my bike.
#50
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"Cost", "Performance", etc.. Has anyone just come out and said that DA functionally is no better than Ultegra, it just weighs less?