zenbiking

New to Bikeforums, but a long time cyclist. Picked up this bike last week for what I considered a more than reasonable price. All I know is that the former owner purchased it from a vintage bike shop in Chicago a few years back. It's a well made frame with some unique details that make me want to try and ID or at least narrow down the builder. Hoping for a longshot that someone might recognize the builder. With the brake mounting, I thought it might be a Harry Havnoonian frame, but I've sent photos to Harry and he has verified that it is not one of his. Smolenski was another that came up in my searches, but the rear stay attachments aren't his style, and it seems like it might be older than the early to mid 80s.

- 130 mm rear spacing
- Nervex lugs
- Aero mount DT shifter boss with fully sleeved internal routing. Slotted BB shell with metal shift cable guides
- Reverse rear brake mounting. Partial housing runs with fully sleeved liner for the inner
- Campagnolo rear dropouts.
- No holes drilled for a headbadge
- Single serial number stamped in the NDS dropout - 20732
Frame is about 5.5 lbs and fork about 1.5 lbs. Fairly close in weight to my mid 70s Paramount frame.

My first post, so of course I'm unable to post an actual URL or photos directly. I've added a URL below. If anyone is afraid to click, I understand. I go by zenbiking on Instagram if you want to investigate me before clicking.

I have put some photos up at https : // bit.ly / mystery_bike

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide

P!N20

bulgie 

My guess is a Paramount, mid-'70s or earlier, where someone replaced the fork and did a major remodel. Including changing the chainstay bridge, and probably the seatstay bridge, tho you don't show a close-up of it.

I don't know about Paramount serials. I'm sure someone here does know them, and that might settle it. My reason to think P'mount is mostly the way the domed stay ends are sort of "faired in" with brass. I don't remember any other brands that did that. I don't love it myself, for purely aesthetic reasons. Nothing wrong with it by any practical measure — it's plenty strong, and it is a style, not generic like everyone else's. I just like my edges crisp on a lugged frame. I can't fault the workmanship.

zenbiking

Bulgie,

That was one of my thoughts as well, but the serial number format doesn't match anything documented on Waterford's website for the appropriate time period. Everything in that 60s to 70s time period would have used a letter as the first location of the serial. That would have been a hell of a lot of remodeling to add internal routing

zenbiking

Thanks for posting the photos P!N20

bulgie 

Yes, but that doesn't point to it not being a remodel either. It's only a tiny bit easier to do on tubes before they're built into a frame. Still quite do-able as a retrofit. In fact the "exit wounds" at the bottom of the downtube has to be done after the tube is in the BB shell, so that part is 100% the same whether original or retrofit.

The other possibility, that the frame was built this way to begin with, seems less likely, because the lugs, seatstay attachment, and long dropouts are all of a different era than the internal routing or the fork crown. Of course someone could have made a '72 style frame in '82, it just seems less likely.

P!N20

Has the end of the non-drive side dropout broken off or has it been modified to be like that?

zenbiking

Good catch. Looking at the frame, both dropouts have been modified in that manner and the length of the slots in the dropout is very similar. If it was broken off, someone took great care in matching them up. The dropouts are square, and there's no indication that the frame has been wrecked.

jdawginsc 

I’ve seen that before. Maybe makes wheel changes quicker?

Doug Fattic 

Measure to see if there is any slight slope to the top tube. I'm betting the top tube near the seat lug is bit higher off the ground than close to the head tube. I believe this frame has been modified long after it was built to take modern short reach brakes. I have a hard time believing this was made that way from its beginnings. Old Paramounts (that this looks exactly like) would have used extra long Dia Compe center pull brakes. The rear dropout modification is another clue it was altered long after it was made. No builder I can think of would have used long slot 1010s with that fork crown which is much more modern. What I think a builder/painter like myself did was make a new fork and replace the rear brake bridge. This was common for people like myself to do these kind of modifications in the late 70's and 80's. Cyclery North in Chicago is one possibility for doing the redo as is Ron Boi (RRB Cycles a bit further north) is another. The 130 spacing would indicate another change taking place after 1992.

BTinNYC 

Maybe allows a 28 or 30mm tire to get past the chainstay bridge without deflating.

I think your find is very cool.

Mr. 66

The shifter set up, I’ve seen that on a Jack Taylor. I don’t recall the other details on that Taylor.

zenbiking

I looked at both frames next to each other this AM, as they happened to be sitting in the same spot. The resemblance to my 74 Paramount is uncanny, other than the Paramount's head tube has a bit more flare The brakes that came installed on this were short reach Campagnolo. With it being purchased by the previous owner in Chicago, a modification at the places you mention would make sense. The serial number still has me a wondering if it was a Paramount I can't see any indication of a leading letter.

Robvolz 

The long campy drop outs scream early 70s

the brazed on pump peg says early 80s as they added seat tube bottle brazes then.

(I don’t like pumps up there. They are always to lift frames)

brazed on shifters say 1978

what a weird mix!!

unworthy1

how about some pix assist? A mystery is well and good but why hide the clues...



usually see this shifter boss on Italian frames

BB too wide for this shell?


crowsfoot front spoke lacing?

interesting to mix the Nervex Pro lugs with this modern fork crown

it's got a serial number for anyone who can decypher
I have no idea based on these visuals!

madpogue 

Hmm, gotta wonder if the rear brake is so arranged to accomodate drilling out the aft-facing hole in the brake bridge for the newer recessed nut brake. That, and of course, the cable routing.

An odd duck for sure. Does that top-mount shifter braze-on really date back to the late '70s?

Doug Fattic 

I'm going to repeat what I said in my earlier post. Framebuilders like myself repainted frames all the time in the 70's and 80's and beyond. Frames would get chips in the paint and they would come in for a repaint. While in the shop, the frame would be checked for alignment and braze-ons removed and others added and then repainted to the customer's choice of color or colors. Often times the decals would be left off because that would be an added expense. The cost of obtaining the decals, and the time spent placing them properly in position and then spaying extra clear over them (probably with sanding in-between) could add simnifically to the cost and some owners did not care if their frame said Schwinn Paramount or not. I would guess when I was doing repaints, more left them off then wanted to pay to have the replaced again.

Now days if one is getting a wet repaint, the customer will likely want to have it restored to its original look. But in the old days a repaint was just keeping the frame alive and looking fresh. It is similar to getting a frame powder coated today. This frame in question looks exactly like it was painted with DuPont Imron (or its PPG equivalent). That is the kind of paint most of us builders/painters used. I'm guessing that owner at the time this frame came back in for a refresh, wanted to change brakes to use what was then cutting edge narrow tires. Centerpull brakes were completely out of fashion. To do that the rear brake bridge had to be taken out and replaced with another one lower down. And the fork would have to be changed so the distance from the brake hole to the center of the axle would match shorter reach brakes.

The dropout to stay and blade treatment and the seat stay caps look exactly like a Paramount to me. In the Midwest here Paramounts were plentiful (they were made in Chicago after all) and made great candidates to buy at a modest cost and get them altered to fit the latest components. That is why it now has 130 spacing. I wouldn't be surprised that if this frame could talk, it would tell us it has been back into a frame builders shop several times in its lifetime. I'm sure I've repainted dozens of them (I'm 100 miles east of Chicago). Although by 2000 I realized I hadn't seen any come in for awhile.

zenbiking

Well some additional information from different group. The serial number appears to be from an 81-83 Schwinn Superior. This would explain the "non-Paramount" serial number but the use of Nervex lugs. Between this, and Doug Fattic 's insight, I think I have a good explanation. Would still be cool to know who did the additional work, but I might just have to continue to wonder about that.

SoCaled 

this might be relevant:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...servation.html

Edit:
probably this one too:
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...l#post23157988

zenbiking

I just finished reading through that thread.