james_p

I bought a 9 speed bike brand new about 12 years ago. It came equipped with 9 speed Dura Ace downtube shifters (SL-7700 9S SIS) and otherwise used 9 speed Sora components. Over the last year, I decided it was time to do a bigger upgrade and I started buying NOS Ultegra 9 speed components (chain rings, front derailleur, rear derailleur, as well as brakes and all necessary cables/chain).

Well, my mechanic friend helped me make the changes yesterday (I prefer to watch and learn as opposed to just drop it off at the shop). Everything went fine without issue except for the rear derailleur (RD-6500). I thought that this would be a simple like-for-like swap with the current Sora derailleur (RD-3400) since they are both Shimano 9 speed components, but the new derailleur would not shift properly. Each pull of the indexed Dura Ace downtube shifter moved the derailleur too far to align with the proper cogs (and it would only reach 8 positions). I am certain the RD-6500 is NOT an 8 speed shifter! My friend also had no idea what was going on, so we swapped back to the RD-3400 and it worked fine, leaving that in place for now. Still, I really want to upgrade everything to the better group set. Can anyone tell me why these indexed Dura Ace shifters would work fine with a Sora 9 speed derailleur but not an Ultegra, or make any recommendations for what to do?

Thank you!

icemilkcoffee 

I have no idea about your problem- maybe he routed the cable to the wrong side of the clamping nut? I am just curious which bike this was that came with 9 speed downtube shifters from the factory.

james_p

It’s a Basso “Gap 1977” (kind of like a vintage style reissue). Bought it while living in Japan, where Bassos are still sold. The frame was made in Taiwan. Pretty nice no frills steel frame. Paid about $700 US for it.

What do you mean by “wrong side of the clamping nut”? What difference would that make?

Is it possible to convert an SL-7700 SIS shifter to a friction shifter? That would definitely solve the problem. Is it easy to do? Has anyone done it? The front derailleur shifter is friction.

maddog34

see the "SIS" logo? that means it SHOULD work with all other SIS components.. and the Bike Gremlin people agree... "

1. Shimano

6, 7, 8 and 9 speeds

Rear shift ratio is 1.7, that is for 1 mm of cable pull/release, RD is moved left/right by 1.7 mm. Shimano calls this 2:1 ratio for marketing reasons.

All these RDs are compatible and any 6 to 9 speed RD will work perfectly with either 6, 7, 8 or 9 speed shifter. Regardless whether it’s a MTB, or road shifter, or RD. They are also compatible with Shimano 10 speed road shifters, except the Tiagra 4700 series.

Shimano Dura Ace from 1984 to 1996 period (6 to 8 speeds)

Rear shift ratio is 1.9. They are compatible only with Shimano Dura Ace shifters from the same period (that is for 6, 7 and 8 speeds).

10 speed ROAD RD

Rear shift ratio is 1.7, so it’s compatible with all the 6 to 9 speed shifters, as well as road 10 speed shifters. Same rear shift ratio. MTB 10 (and 11 speed) shifters won’t work well.

Exception is Shimano Tiagra 4700 10 speed road RD – it has the same shift ratio as Shimano road 11 speed RDs, so it will work only with Tiagra 4700 shifters and Shimano 11 speed road shifters.

Another exception is the new “gravel” group (with hydraulic brakes): Shimano GRX. Caple pull wise it’s the same as Tiagra 4700."
https://bike.bikegremlin.com/1278/bi...mpatibility/#1

I'd be looking at the Cable clamp/cable, as others suggest... since your parts SHOULD work fine... look for a little trough that the cable should seat into, or previous makings from a previous install... ignore the tab that keeps the clamp plate from rotating.....people sometimes think the cable HAS to route under that tab... it's not always true...

Sheldon Brown's site agrees that the shifter and Rear Der. you have stated should Work fine together...

"1997 was a very big year for Dura-Ace. The system went to 9 speeds, and that was the most publicized change. In addition, however, the entire Dura-Ace system was redesigned and made to be inter-compatible with other Shimano components.

Derailers and Shifter Indexing

The major difference between pre-1997 Dura-Ace and the rest of the Shimano lines is the cable travel of the rear derailer. Old Dura-Ace used a shorter amount of cable travel per shift. This has to do with the geometry of the cable attachment. Since the cable moved a shorter distance per shift, effects of cable friction or inaccurate cable adjustment were magnified.

With the introduction of the 6-speed 600EX S.I.S. group, the cable attachment on the rear derailer changed, so that the cable had to move farther per shift. This change reduced cable tension, reduced the effects of cable misadjustment and friction, and generally made for a more forgiving system. The same geometry was adapted for 9-speed Dura-Ace when it was introduced in 1997. All subsequent S.I.S. groups match the travel of the 600EX, except the 10-speed "Shadow" XTR derailers and shifters, which have an even longer cable travel.."

a favorite Axiom of mine...... Don't assume, Find Out.

your 6500 derailleur has a trough for the cable to seat in when clamped. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/krIAA...Rf/s-l1600.jpg

KCT1986

By clamping the cable in a position other than at the groove, the RD will have a different actuation ratio. This means that the RD will move more or less than what is normal for specific RD.

In the position in the attached diagram, this would increase the movement of the RD per millimeter of cable pull. More info on this can be found on Sheldon Brown's website. A link is at the top of the Bike Mechanics sub-forum. Go to the Dura-ace link from that thread.

rccardr 

That shifter/derailleur combination is absolutely compatible. There’s no reason a properly installed and adjusted set of those components would not work perfectly.
I suspect user (mechanic) errror.
Were new cables and housing installed when upgrading? Whether lr not, very possible that the ferrule at the chainstay socket was not fully inserted and that the ensuing cable play caused the problems you describe…which would disappear when the old RD was reinstalled and the ferrule inserted properly. That final length of housing can flop around easily when disconnected from the RD.
Yes, 7700 DT shifters have a friction setting. Rotate the D ring away from SIS to the Friction location marked on the indicator ring.

mpetry912 

I think maddog34 post is exactly what I remember, the DA shifters in period had a different pull ratio not compatible with down line shimano components.

the hint about routing the cable to the inside of the nut is a good idea, certainly try it, but mix and match of components is hit or miss. If it works, great, if not, go fish.

sorry about all the mixed metaphors

/markp

HillRider

Dura Ace up through 8-speed was not compatible with other Shimano groups. Dura Ace 9-speed (which the OP has) is fully compatible with all other Shimano road groups up through 10-speed.

KCT1986

This is not the case here. The SL-7700 is after Shimano changed the DA to match the other groups of the period (6500, 5500, etc series). It was the pre-7700 DA that was different, those used the unique actuation ratio.

The standard cable attachment, in the groove, on the RD-6500 is the correct for the SL-7700 shifter.

james_p

Update! After finding the manual online and confirming that the SL-7700 shift levers are actually among the recommended pairings for the RD-6500 (as others have confirmed here) I decided to just get the bike back up on the stand and try it again. I didn’t do anything different this time (as far as I can tell), but it worked. Thank you everyone for weighing in!

smd4

So everything is working fine now, with no changes being made?

james_p

Basically! The derailleur cable seems to have two installation points (where it has been slightly flattened by the nut), so my best guess is that the cable was not fully extended when it was originally installed and we didn’t notice? But I really don’t know!

KCT1986

Glad that it worked out.

That combo is expected to work together. Something must have been 'off' with the cabling/housing in the prior attempt.

smd4

Hey, glad that worked out for you. I love the DA down tube shifters.

VtwinVince

Ditto, I'm running 9 speed DA downtube shifters on one of my bikes, and they're pretty cool.

james_p

I love them. My friend keeps telling me I need to get brifters and I really don’t like them. Downtube shifters have their disadvantages but they’re lightning quick and super accurate. I think I’ll find it hard to adjust when I get a more modern bike someday. Did a test ride this evening and everything is working as it should!

DiabloScott

9-speed DA shifters also index well with lots of MTB derailleurs.
They don't work so well in friction mode IME... maybe just my setup, but they tend to drift - or let the RD spring pull them out of position.

Camilo

I agree. I have some Dura Ace 9 speed downtube shifters and they worked perfectly with my old 9 speed rear derailleur.

I'll bet the cable was inadvertently connected incorrectly the first time. It's easy to do. Another thing that can happen - less likely to be missed, but I have missed it at least initially and temporarily - is that the cable housing can come loose from the chain stay cable stop so the cable isn't secure and therefore the shifting won't work. But, usually obvious. I'll be the wrong attachment point especially easy on these derailleurs because there are indeed two functional attachment points.

Kontact

They need to be tightened down more.

Camilo

Any Shimano 9 (or 10) speed shifter, STI or SIS (downtube or bar end) will work with any 8 or 9 speed Shimano mountain bike rear derailleur. I've set up several bikes with 9 or 10 speed bar end and STI shifters with a variety of 8 and 9 speed RDs.

james_p

What a beautiful bike! I was definitely willing to try friction mode if it came to that, but I’m glad it didn’t. Indexing is definitely superior in my opinion.

james_p

Yes, definitely user error of some sort. I’m just glad we got to the bottom of it!