Landis Hearing: Weird
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Originally Posted by KramerTC
Yesterday was very reminiscent of the OJ Simpson trial when the lab workers were being questioned. Anyone remember Denis Fong? He was made to look like a total idiot by the defense attorneys.
I think the impression of incompetence is inevitable anytime you have a low level technician's daily routine being put under the microscope by high level attorneys and experts.
I think the impression of incompetence is inevitable anytime you have a low level technician's daily routine being put under the microscope by high level attorneys and experts.
Exactly. When the rules and guidelines are written, they are written in uber-anal (its a legal term trust me). These rules and guidelines are often so rigid that it makes it impossible for someone not to have to break one when something unexpected comes up (like a machine not running at 100% or not enough sample to do blind duplicates). This will always give lawyers and expert witnesses something to pounce on. I've done my fair share of groundwater sampling, and I can tell you the stars have to be aligned just perfectly for me to be able to perform the sampling exactly how the rules are written. Its not that you're cutting corners, but that the rules and guidelines are so rigid, they cannot account for everything that could come up.
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The lessons of the OJ trial worked well for the LAPD lab- they no longer are the object of ridicule they once were. Unfortunately, the LNDD lab did not seem to learn from the LAPD's mistakes. Prosecutions (legal or disciplinary) should not have to worry about assinine clerical errors by evidenciary labs.
Rules are only effective if they are followed and these clearly have not.
Rules are only effective if they are followed and these clearly have not.
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My understanding is that Lemond told Landis he (Lemond) was sexually abused as a child; given the revelation and the context in which it was made, I imagine Lemond expected Landis to keep it confidential.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
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Originally Posted by serpico7
My understanding is that Lemond told Landis he (Lemond) was sexually abused as a child; given the revelation and the context in which it was made, I imagine Lemond expected Landis to keep it confidential.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
Did Lemond honestly believe that Floyd was the type of person who would "give in" to confessing (if he in fact had doped) just from that tidbit about Lemond's abuse story? I think enough has been written about Floyd to suggest he is not the type of person who is going to be persuaded that easily. So then, why would Lemond risk telling this stuff? That makes me think that either Lemond is a complete loony or was hoping the info would get out so he would have another excuse to point a finger at Floyd.
I would tend to think the former since I don't know many people who like to talk about that kind of private stuff. Is this the first time the abuse story came out?
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Originally Posted by serpico7
My understanding is that Lemond told Landis he (Lemond) was sexually abused as a child; given the revelation and the context in which it was made, I imagine Lemond expected Landis to keep it confidential.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
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I'm still trying to figure out what any of this has to do with Landis cheating. His response was inconclusive at best- too many interpretations are plausable to be meaningful. This is weird as the tread headline states.
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Originally Posted by serpico7
My understanding is that Lemond told Landis he (Lemond) was sexually abused as a child; given the revelation and the context in which it was made, I imagine Lemond expected Landis to keep it confidential.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
I think Landis is as guilty as ever. HOWEVER - I think Landis probably expected the same of Lemond (i.e. - the conversation was private and off-the record).
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Originally Posted by serpico7
My understanding is that Lemond told Landis he (Lemond) was sexually abused as a child; given the revelation and the context in which it was made, I imagine Lemond expected Landis to keep it confidential.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
Why would Landis relay this story to his manager - other than for use in potentially silencing Lemond? It's not just Landis' team that looks sleazy. Floyd looks like a snake too.
Hiring a manager with such horrible judgement is the mistake Landis made.
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So Landis was in the same room when Will G. made the call, not within hearing distance but there, the hotel dining room.
Then he follows his bus mgr to his hotel room where Will G. is answering the call from GL but doesn't hear what is said.
What a great way to be there (since its irrefutable that the calls took place) and still deny any involvement!
https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12284.0.html
This has more detail:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...earing_day6_07
Then he follows his bus mgr to his hotel room where Will G. is answering the call from GL but doesn't hear what is said.
What a great way to be there (since its irrefutable that the calls took place) and still deny any involvement!
https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12284.0.html
This has more detail:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...earing_day6_07
Last edited by KramerTC; 05-20-07 at 10:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by KramerTC
So Landis was in the same room when Will G. made the call, not within hearing distance but there, the hotel dining room.
Then he follows his bus mgr to his hotel room where Will G. is answering the call from GL but doesn't hear what is said.
What a great way to be there (since its irrefutable that the calls took place) and still deny any involvement!
https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12284.0.html
This has more detail:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...earing_day6_07
Then he follows his bus mgr to his hotel room where Will G. is answering the call from GL but doesn't hear what is said.
What a great way to be there (since its irrefutable that the calls took place) and still deny any involvement!
https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12284.0.html
This has more detail:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...earing_day6_07
Yeah, it seems that Landis is being badly advised. The fact that he cannot stick to the talking points when speaking to the media is also a bit of a problem. To "explain away" his positive test, I think he first mentioned de-hydration, then whiskey and beer, then he repudiated that last story when on the BBC.
If Landis is indeed telling the truth about this and he did not dope, why does he keep changing his story?
The fact that what happened to Lemond is the execution of threats Landis made online is also pretty damming.
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Originally Posted by 1slowbastard
Hiring a manager with such horrible judgement is the mistake Landis made.
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Originally Posted by Trouduc
Yeah, it seems that Landis is being badly advised. The fact that he cannot stick to the talking points when speaking to the media is also a bit of a problem. To "explain away" his positive test, I think he first mentioned de-hydration, then whiskey and beer, then he repudiated that last story when on the BBC.
If Landis is indeed telling the truth about this and he did not dope, why does he keep changing his story?
The fact that what happened to Lemond is the execution of threats Landis made online is also pretty damming.
If Landis is indeed telling the truth about this and he did not dope, why does he keep changing his story?
The fact that what happened to Lemond is the execution of threats Landis made online is also pretty damming.
"Knowing" something base on such useless interpretations of personal behavior is false knowledge and far too emotional. Figuring out something using such subjective criteria reveals a lot about your own preexisting beliefs rather than the subject at hand.
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
Any action Landis took following the allegation of doping would damn him in some people's minds. If he reacted with canned excuses then he was doping. If he faltered in his excuses then he was doping. He was in a lose-lose situation and should have just kept quiet. If he wrote about Lemond or didn't write about Lemond somebody here would read that as guilt.
"Knowing" something base on such useless interpretations of personal behavior is false knowledge and far too emotional. Figuring out something using such subjective criteria reveals a lot about your own preexisting beliefs rather than the subject at hand.
"Knowing" something base on such useless interpretations of personal behavior is false knowledge and far too emotional. Figuring out something using such subjective criteria reveals a lot about your own preexisting beliefs rather than the subject at hand.
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Originally Posted by Trouduc
If he was telling the truth he would have been consistent in his answers with respect to why he had such a great day on stage 17 and why his test showed up positive. He was not consistent; his answers varied wildly.
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Originally Posted by 1slowbastard
Landis had no obligation to keep Lemond's story confidential. Lemond was going to testify publicly regarding the abuse.
Hiring a manager with such horrible judgement is the mistake Landis made.
Hiring a manager with such horrible judgement is the mistake Landis made.
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Originally Posted by Trouduc
If he was telling the truth he would have been consistent in his answers with respect to why he had such a great day on stage 17 and why his test showed up positive. He was not consistent; his answers varied wildly.
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Originally Posted by Trouduc
If he was telling the truth he would have been consistent in his answers with respect to why he had such a great day on stage 17 and why his test showed up positive. He was not consistent; his answers varied wildly.
As far as his answers about why he tested positive, believe it or not, that's one of the few things that put a little doubt into my mind that he did dope. He sounded to me like he was blindsided by it, and was wildly speculating. Probably not the case, but if I had been in his position, I think I would have had some kind of pre-planned response.
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Originally Posted by rog
As far as his answers about why he tested positive, believe it or not, that's one of the few things that put a little doubt into my mind that he did dope. He sounded to me like he was blindsided by it, and was wildly speculating. Probably not the case, but if I had been in his position, I think I would have had some kind of pre-planned response.
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Originally Posted by rog
As far as I can recall, there wasn't much variation on why he had such a great day...he said when you looked at the numbers, it wasn't that great a day. The fact that he was able to cool himself down so effectively with all the water bottles, and a terrible job of chasing by the peloton is what did it. I don't believe I've heard any variation on that from him - if you can provide quotes to the contrary, please do, I'd be interested to read them.
As far as his answers about why he tested positive, believe it or not, that's one of the few things that put a little doubt into my mind that he did dope. He sounded to me like he was blindsided by it, and was wildly speculating. Probably not the case, but if I had been in his position, I think I would have had some kind of pre-planned response.
As far as his answers about why he tested positive, believe it or not, that's one of the few things that put a little doubt into my mind that he did dope. He sounded to me like he was blindsided by it, and was wildly speculating. Probably not the case, but if I had been in his position, I think I would have had some kind of pre-planned response.
This is the closest I could find regarding the changing story from beer to whiskey... also check out the name Eufemiano Fuentes in the article:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul28news2
Landis denies
Floyd Landis has broken his silence about his high T/E ratio that could cost him the Tour de France, as well as hammering cycling's already battered image. Landis, who has requested a B sample analysis to confirm his A test, told Sports Illustrated, that he "can't be hopeful" that the B sample will be any different than the A. "I'm a realist," he added. When asked whether he had used a testosterone patch for recovery, Landis denied it straight out.
But even if the B sample confirms the A result, Landis is not necessarily guilty of taking an illegal performance enhancing drug to boost his testosterone. Some riders can prove that they have an elevated Testosterone/Epitestosterone (T:E) level, if they undergo an endocrine test performed by a credible doctor. Landis said he will use Spanish doctor Luis Hernández, who has helped other riders prove a high T:E count. "In hundreds of cases, no one's ever lost one," Landis told SI.
In 1999, Colombian rider Santiago Botero was able to prove his elevated testosterone levels (over four times the allowed limit) were natural. His doctor at the time was Kelme's Dr Eufemiano Fuentes.
Landis is looking for other answers too. He is allowed to take cortisone for his degenerating right hip, although he said during the Tour that he had only had a couple of injections this year. But he also told SI that he'd been taking daily doses of a thyroid hormone to treat a thyroid condition. Even if either of these can explain his high T:E ratio, Landis realises that it will be hard to convince people. "I wouldn't hold it against somebody if they don't believe me," he said.
Others have looked at explanations such as the beer Landis had the night before his stage 17 exploit, citing a study in the American Association for Clinical Chemistry ( Vol 34, 1462-1464, 1988) by Swedish researchers O Falk, E Palonek and I Bjorkhem. In it, they investigated the effects of the ingestion of between 110-160 g of ethanol (2 g/kg bodyweight). They showed that it "increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine from 1.14 +/- 0.07 to 1.52 +/- 0.09 in four healthy male volunteers. The increase ranged from 30% to 90% in the different subjects studied (mean 41%). In cases where doping with testosterone is suspected, the possibility should be considered that at least part of an observed increased testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in urine is ascribable to previous ingestion of ethanol."
As a caveat, Landis was quoted at the time as saying that he'd only had one beer and a small amount of Jack Daniels later on. Even a pint of normal strength beer generally doesn't contain more than 20 g of alcohol, while a shot of whiskey contains about 10 g - a much lower level than was studied by the Swedish researchers.
USA Cycling's statement on Landis
As the national federation responsible for American riders, USA Cycling has issued its statement in reaction to the Floyd Landis case. USAC made clear that it would not comment on "any facet of any anti-doping matter out of respect for both the rights of the athlete and the due process. USA Cycling immediately refers all anti-doping matters to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) for processing and adjudication.
"'Respecting the due process and the rights of all athletes as a member of the Olympic family, USA Cycling cannot and will not tolerate doping in our sport,' commented Steve Johnson, chief executive officer of USA Cycling. We maintain a zero-tolerance policy with regards to doping and will continue to adhere to the highest standards of fair play.
"In order to protect the integrity and reputation of those athletes who exemplify the Olympic ideals and compete clean, USA Cycling is committed to working with the United States Olympic Committee, the UCI, the U.S. Anti-doping Agency and the World Anti-Doping Agency to ensure a level playing field for all of our athletes."
Floyd Landis has broken his silence about his high T/E ratio that could cost him the Tour de France, as well as hammering cycling's already battered image. Landis, who has requested a B sample analysis to confirm his A test, told Sports Illustrated, that he "can't be hopeful" that the B sample will be any different than the A. "I'm a realist," he added. When asked whether he had used a testosterone patch for recovery, Landis denied it straight out.
But even if the B sample confirms the A result, Landis is not necessarily guilty of taking an illegal performance enhancing drug to boost his testosterone. Some riders can prove that they have an elevated Testosterone/Epitestosterone (T:E) level, if they undergo an endocrine test performed by a credible doctor. Landis said he will use Spanish doctor Luis Hernández, who has helped other riders prove a high T:E count. "In hundreds of cases, no one's ever lost one," Landis told SI.
In 1999, Colombian rider Santiago Botero was able to prove his elevated testosterone levels (over four times the allowed limit) were natural. His doctor at the time was Kelme's Dr Eufemiano Fuentes.
Landis is looking for other answers too. He is allowed to take cortisone for his degenerating right hip, although he said during the Tour that he had only had a couple of injections this year. But he also told SI that he'd been taking daily doses of a thyroid hormone to treat a thyroid condition. Even if either of these can explain his high T:E ratio, Landis realises that it will be hard to convince people. "I wouldn't hold it against somebody if they don't believe me," he said.
Others have looked at explanations such as the beer Landis had the night before his stage 17 exploit, citing a study in the American Association for Clinical Chemistry ( Vol 34, 1462-1464, 1988) by Swedish researchers O Falk, E Palonek and I Bjorkhem. In it, they investigated the effects of the ingestion of between 110-160 g of ethanol (2 g/kg bodyweight). They showed that it "increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine from 1.14 +/- 0.07 to 1.52 +/- 0.09 in four healthy male volunteers. The increase ranged from 30% to 90% in the different subjects studied (mean 41%). In cases where doping with testosterone is suspected, the possibility should be considered that at least part of an observed increased testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in urine is ascribable to previous ingestion of ethanol."
As a caveat, Landis was quoted at the time as saying that he'd only had one beer and a small amount of Jack Daniels later on. Even a pint of normal strength beer generally doesn't contain more than 20 g of alcohol, while a shot of whiskey contains about 10 g - a much lower level than was studied by the Swedish researchers.
USA Cycling's statement on Landis
As the national federation responsible for American riders, USA Cycling has issued its statement in reaction to the Floyd Landis case. USAC made clear that it would not comment on "any facet of any anti-doping matter out of respect for both the rights of the athlete and the due process. USA Cycling immediately refers all anti-doping matters to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) for processing and adjudication.
"'Respecting the due process and the rights of all athletes as a member of the Olympic family, USA Cycling cannot and will not tolerate doping in our sport,' commented Steve Johnson, chief executive officer of USA Cycling. We maintain a zero-tolerance policy with regards to doping and will continue to adhere to the highest standards of fair play.
"In order to protect the integrity and reputation of those athletes who exemplify the Olympic ideals and compete clean, USA Cycling is committed to working with the United States Olympic Committee, the UCI, the U.S. Anti-doping Agency and the World Anti-Doping Agency to ensure a level playing field for all of our athletes."
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Will was a teammate of Landis' when he was racing MTB's.
Well - he MUST be qualified to handle the business affairs of Landis then.
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Originally Posted by Trouduc
If he was telling the truth he would have been consistent in his answers with respect to why he had such a great day on stage 17 and why his test showed up positive. He was not consistent; his answers varied wildly.
I read his reaction as someone accused of an infraction grasping at straws without the sense or will to just shut up until a reasonable response can be planned. Most people react poorly to accusations of wrong doing- why should Landis be different?
Why does USADA waste tax payer money on lab testing of blood and urine if they could have someone with the ability to know guilt based on reactions to accusations like you?
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This thread has kinda languished for the past two days but I found this very interesting from velonews.com
"While it lacked the salacious punch of the LeMond-Landis-Geoghegan affair, Davis's testimony was potentially far more compelling. He has extensive experience with the equipment used to carry out the testing of Landis's urine samples, and was on hand to watch retesting in April at the French lab.
Davis claimed he saw a litany of errors and misjudgments that tainted the final results beyond any realm of credibility. Lab technicians were moving critical data points, removing other data points, and even adding new ones "that resulted in readings that were much different than original samples."
Later Landis attorney Maurice Suh revealed a photo that Davis snapped at the lab with his cell phone, showing a testing machine. Davis pointed out a pair of large magnetic lifting rings that he claimed should not have been left in place when the machine was in use because it alters the machine's ability to function properly.
"I don't know for certain that it's caused a huge problem," Davis said. "Nobody knows. But those rings are not supposed to be left there."
Davis also gave failing grades to lab workers Cynthia Mongongu and Claire Frelat, who carried out the testing on Landis's urine sample both last summer and in April. "They clearly did not understand the instrument," Davis said of the two French women who testified earlier in the hearing. "I had to help them load the software onto the machine. Generally they did not know how the software worked."
"While it lacked the salacious punch of the LeMond-Landis-Geoghegan affair, Davis's testimony was potentially far more compelling. He has extensive experience with the equipment used to carry out the testing of Landis's urine samples, and was on hand to watch retesting in April at the French lab.
Davis claimed he saw a litany of errors and misjudgments that tainted the final results beyond any realm of credibility. Lab technicians were moving critical data points, removing other data points, and even adding new ones "that resulted in readings that were much different than original samples."
Later Landis attorney Maurice Suh revealed a photo that Davis snapped at the lab with his cell phone, showing a testing machine. Davis pointed out a pair of large magnetic lifting rings that he claimed should not have been left in place when the machine was in use because it alters the machine's ability to function properly.
"I don't know for certain that it's caused a huge problem," Davis said. "Nobody knows. But those rings are not supposed to be left there."
Davis also gave failing grades to lab workers Cynthia Mongongu and Claire Frelat, who carried out the testing on Landis's urine sample both last summer and in April. "They clearly did not understand the instrument," Davis said of the two French women who testified earlier in the hearing. "I had to help them load the software onto the machine. Generally they did not know how the software worked."
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Originally Posted by rog
As far as I can recall, there wasn't much variation on why he had such a great day...he said when you looked at the numbers, it wasn't that great a day. The fact that he was able to cool himself down so effectively with all the water bottles, and a terrible job of chasing by the peloton is what did it. I don't believe I've heard any variation on that from him - if you can provide quotes to the contrary, please do, I'd be interested to read them.
As far as his answers about why he tested positive, believe it or not, that's one of the few things that put a little doubt into my mind that he did dope. He sounded to me like he was blindsided by it, and was wildly speculating. Probably not the case, but if I had been in his position, I think I would have had some kind of pre-planned response.
As far as his answers about why he tested positive, believe it or not, that's one of the few things that put a little doubt into my mind that he did dope. He sounded to me like he was blindsided by it, and was wildly speculating. Probably not the case, but if I had been in his position, I think I would have had some kind of pre-planned response.
With what else has happened having no planned responce does raise the possibility that Floyd doped (or doped more than he planned) because his manager slipped him something without his knowledge. That will not help him as far as sanctions go, but could change his public image.
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Originally Posted by RockyMtnMerlin
This thread has kinda languished for the past two days but I found this very interesting from velonews.com
"While it lacked the salacious punch of the LeMond-Landis-Geoghegan affair, Davis's testimony was potentially far more compelling. He has extensive experience with the equipment used to carry out the testing of Landis's urine samples, and was on hand to watch retesting in April at the French lab.
Davis claimed he saw a litany of errors and misjudgments that tainted the final results beyond any realm of credibility. Lab technicians were moving critical data points, removing other data points, and even adding new ones "that resulted in readings that were much different than original samples."
Later Landis attorney Maurice Suh revealed a photo that Davis snapped at the lab with his cell phone, showing a testing machine. Davis pointed out a pair of large magnetic lifting rings that he claimed should not have been left in place when the machine was in use because it alters the machine's ability to function properly.
"I don't know for certain that it's caused a huge problem," Davis said. "Nobody knows. But those rings are not supposed to be left there."
Davis also gave failing grades to lab workers Cynthia Mongongu and Claire Frelat, who carried out the testing on Landis's urine sample both last summer and in April. "They clearly did not understand the instrument," Davis said of the two French women who testified earlier in the hearing. "I had to help them load the software onto the machine. Generally they did not know how the software worked."
"While it lacked the salacious punch of the LeMond-Landis-Geoghegan affair, Davis's testimony was potentially far more compelling. He has extensive experience with the equipment used to carry out the testing of Landis's urine samples, and was on hand to watch retesting in April at the French lab.
Davis claimed he saw a litany of errors and misjudgments that tainted the final results beyond any realm of credibility. Lab technicians were moving critical data points, removing other data points, and even adding new ones "that resulted in readings that were much different than original samples."
Later Landis attorney Maurice Suh revealed a photo that Davis snapped at the lab with his cell phone, showing a testing machine. Davis pointed out a pair of large magnetic lifting rings that he claimed should not have been left in place when the machine was in use because it alters the machine's ability to function properly.
"I don't know for certain that it's caused a huge problem," Davis said. "Nobody knows. But those rings are not supposed to be left there."
Davis also gave failing grades to lab workers Cynthia Mongongu and Claire Frelat, who carried out the testing on Landis's urine sample both last summer and in April. "They clearly did not understand the instrument," Davis said of the two French women who testified earlier in the hearing. "I had to help them load the software onto the machine. Generally they did not know how the software worked."
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Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
That makes me think that either Lemond is a complete loony or was hoping the info would get out so he would have another excuse to point a finger at Floyd.
I would tend to think the former since I don't know many people who like to talk about that kind of private stuff. Is this the first time the abuse story came out?
I would tend to think the former since I don't know many people who like to talk about that kind of private stuff. Is this the first time the abuse story came out?
BTW guys, post-inquiry, Landis and coach may now very likely face criminal charges for blackmail and tampering.
I don't know what is worse, supporting a slime ball like Landis, or slagging a true champion of American cycling.
It's good to see that Velonews readers at least were supporting Lemond.
Patrick O'Grady has it right on:
https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12283.0.html
"If I'd kicked in so much as a wooden nickel to Landis's war chest, I'd want it back. With interest. Disinfected."