roadwarrior

Somehow, of everyone on this board I'd suspect that you'd say this.

The people that actually worked with and for him disagree. Dirk Demol as well. I'll go with their opinion. They know what they are talking about.

roadwarrior

American riders were in the minority. Thus most of the rest of the original post.

bdcheung

I guess it all depends on how you define the nationality of a team. What would you call T-Mobile?

VT Biker

Go ahead - take the opinion of people at the Team Disco drug infested teat. I could care less.

I do know this - Corporate America and the rest of world wanted nothing to do with this team after all the scandals. Seriously - absent the drug scandals, these guys should easily be able to get the sponsorship money. It should be a no brainer. Corporate America does not want to be involved with Bruyneel anymore. They see the risks associating with a guy who would hire Basso and Contador.

timmhaan

american owned and american sponsed pretty much means it's an american team. lots of other teams have international riders as well...but when you think of a team's country it's logical to go with who owns and sponsers it. would you not agree that t-mobile is a german team?

fly:yes/land:no

popo is the one that i think gets hurt the most by this. he was probably really excited thinking that he could make some good money after his solid tour performance because he was one of the only free agent gc guys. now, he has levi and contador in the same pool of free agents and one less team to try to get signed with. ouch. that hurts the wallet.

redal

These two statements seem contradictory. I agree with you that Cruz and McCartney are not grand tour world class riders but they were both signed after 1999. Remember that Tony left for a year and was resigned by the team. Of the six years that Tony has ridden for USPS/Discovery he has started and finished four grand tours. Every time JB was more than pleased with his performance. During his first five year stint the only year he didn't ride a grand tour was when he asked to come home to ride San Francisco so that he could see his family earlier that year. You should also know that when Tony made the decision to come home and ride for Toyota-United, JB told him that if it didn't work out to call and there would be a spot available. Obviously he did.

VT Biker

But Popo will still do okay, as he is still on an upswing in his career. I think Danielson and Lepheimer get hurt more, because the expected return on investment with these two is declining.

In fact, Popo in my mind is the best free-agent of the bunch, since he:

(a) Is on the upside of his career;
(b) Does not have a drug investigation hanging over his head.

Contador may not be able to sign with a team until the WADA investigation is over, which I think is the reason for the press conference on the same day the team announced that it was disbanding.

alanfleisig

Paging Mark Cuban! Mark Cuban. Please report to the argyle 3-series wagon. With your wallet.

roadwarrior

There are Premiership teams (that's the top English football league if you are following along) owned by Americans. Are those American teams? Malcolm Glazer (an American)owns Manchester United (England's most famous team)and it's sponsored by AIG, an American company. American team?

My point is anymore there are no real pro "national" teams. The closest would be Euskatel Euskadi since you have to be Basque to be on the team.

roadwarrior

Did Cruz make the Tour team? And that was four tours out of 18 that were ridden during that time (the six years you mention). I can't recall if he rode any where they won. Paolo, Heras, etc...
Was Postal/Disco all about the Tour? Yep. They only rode the Vuelta to give the huge # of Spanish riders a shot. And still won the thing, pre Pro Tour.
Remember, before the Pro Tour started, Postal had US operations. Cruz rode here a lot. It was not until they HAD to ride all three GT's that some of these guys got that experience. They folded their US operations after the Pro Tour started as they could no longer afford both due to the sheer # of riders required to ride all 3 GT's, plus all the spring stuff.

pinky

good riddance, though I rather see the doctors behind the team arrested rather than simply moving to other programs. The thought of Bruyneel working with American juniors makes my skin crawl though.

Trevor98

I don't know anything substantial about Bruyneel's doping ethics- all I see about it is speculation and rumors. It is sad how many people think that they must have an opinion on the matter, form one on rumors and then believe in that opinion enough to post it here. It makes me wonder how much gossip they pass in the real world.

roadwarrior

Home run...

Well said. And very much the truth.

Midnight Cyril

WHAT?! People are allowed to form opinions! And share them on the innertubes?! Some sort of license should be required. Glad to hear you know nothing substantial about his doping ethics -- keep it up! I can share that I have no firsthand knowledge that Barry Bonds has done anything shady. Anyone else not know anything?

KramerTC

Since rumor posting is no longer allowed what about this:
JB signed Basso and Contador while under heavy suspicion of Puerto implications. The stuff that Franke has come forth with is not new (what's new if he claims he has copies of original/unfiltered Puerto documents).

If those two signings don't show contempt for the new effort that was under way to clean up pro cycling then I don't know what does.

Good riddance Bruyneel.

redal

You're right he never made the Tour team. He told me about a very interesting conversation that he, Johan and the team doctor had during his first year over there. After that conversation, Johan and he decided that maybe the Tour wasn't for him. He did ride the Giro the year Paolo won. As you state, his first four years on the team they only rode two grand tours. So he's actually ridden four out of 13 (Vuelta hasn't been ridden this year). Not many of the guys do two a year so that's quite a bit. Postal did have US operations, but I wouldn't say he rode here a lot, I know when he's home. He rode Redlands twice, Georgia twice and he would always be home for Downer's Grove. One year he flew home for Downer's on Friday and flew back to Denmark on Monday. He was always home during July because as you stated he didn't ride the Tour. I think he's been home more this year because of injury than ever before. Every year he rode all of the early classics because that is a major part of why Johan wanted him.

It just seemed in your earlier post that you were discounting both Cruz and McCartney's abilities like they were lucky to have rides since they weren't potential grand tour winners. Also, I know what you're saying about Postal having a US team, but Tony was never part of that which is why he relocated to Girona every year since his first year on the team. The "domestic" riders never got apartments in Girona.

VT Biker

My guess is you still think there are WMD's in Iraq as well, huh?

You may call it gossip, but as Bob Stapleton (T-Mobile Manager) has stated - if you wait until there is absolutely unrefutable evidence of doping by an athlete or team, Cycling is going to lose the game.

While there may not be absolute "fact" that Bruyneel supported, condoned and helped Team Disco/Postal riders dope with abandon, there is enough "Appearance" for me to make up my mind. If you are truly committed to running a clean team, you do NOT sign Basso or Contador.

VT Biker

+ 1.


Keep this in mind when American Juniors start to DOMINATE the Worlds.

Also - my bet is this is going to be his route to putting together another team in the future.

Snicklefritz

+1 Bruyneel is a smart guy with an eye for talent. So I wouldn't be surprised if you end up being correct

VT Biker

I bet he and Lance have a 5 - 6 year plan to put together another team. Work with the juniors, spot the GC talent, and then put enough of the young guys together on one team, and supplant that with existing riders.

In addition - these guys can mold these young kids into accepting the Lance/Bruyneel idea of "clean" riding. In fact, based on the accounts of many riders, they start doping unintentionally, as they are given "vitamin" / "fluid" shots/IV drips and unknowingly get caught up into doping. And I imagine once you get hooked to the advantage, it is VERY tough to ride "clean".

pinky

Funny, my opinions come from having had conversations and interviews with pro cyclists and people around them, as well as members of the cycling media whom I talk with regularly. Bruyneel comes from a time where doping was an accepted and perhaps necessary part of the sport. USPS/Disco was systematically doped to the gills during the past there Tour wins while...lets see Ullrich, Basso (unless you choose to believe his line about not having used the doping producsts) Kloden, Vino, Honchar, Hamilton, Heras, Millar and more were doped out the ass and back.
We don't even have to bring up LA but how the hell were his domestiques able to work day after day while holding those aforementioned riders repeatedly?
For the Bruyneel believers...

LT Intolerant

I'm not a Bruyneel fan nor a detractor. But if it's so well known that Bruyneel is/was a doping advocate why have no charges been filed against him or the Disco riders he coached/oversaw?

Heras was busted post-Disco, and Basso was with CSC when he "planned to dope"? Not doubting your observations, just wondering.

gene r

patentcad

Thank goodness we can now focus on all those other utterly drug free squeaky-clean pillars of cycling virtue like Astana,TMobile and CSC. I'd say the drug culture in cycling has nothing to do with Disco and America per say and has been ingrained in the sport since the 1950's.

Snicklefritz

So the statement from Lance: "I do not think you have seen the last of this organization in the sport but clearly things need to improve on many levels, with a more unified front, before you would see us venture back into cycling," Armstrong said."

I was surprised to hear Lance say this because he has been such a huge part of cycling over the last 7+ years. However I'm wondering if maybe he is saying this because he knows they can't continue their domination with the doping scandals being buted wide open like they have been...get now before people get on to you...(or more so then they have been)