gauvins

Several threads suggest rotating chains. If I understand the argument correctly, chain rotation is motivated by the fact that as the cassette wears, it will not provide a good fit with a fresh chain, such that on your third chain on the same cassette, things will not run smoothly and you may have to (prematurely) change your cassette. OTOH if you rotate chains, your "third" chain will be worn, and will be a good fit with your ageing cassette.

So far so good.

Which means that if one decides to rotate chains (say, every 500 miles), one must make a decision wrt the longevity of the cassette (would it have outlived 3,4 or even 5 chains).

For a couple of reasons I might very well start rotating chains (the scenario being swapping chains once a week on tour).

Maybe someone would like to perfect my understanding of the rotation technique. And/or confirm/discredit the idea that a cassette is typically changed every 3 chains.

My objective is not to pinch pennies. But to extend the life of drivetrain consumables.

alan s 

I just check the chain every so often for wear and replace. If it skips, I replace the cassette, too. With multiple bikes and even more wheelsets, I really don't want to spend time micromanaging chain wear. With a single chain and cassette, perhaps it is possible to do what you are suggesting.

Leebo

3 chains is what I do for my expensive 1x11 stuff for the fat bike. Sort of miles but I do 3 months, similar miles. Just keep rotating the chains through. But you are going to carry 2 extra chains on tour?

mstateglfr 

Wow that seems like a lot of scheduled maintenance. I couldnt keep it straight on my bikes. I'd need a lot of chains too since one is an 11sp, three are 9sp, and one is 7sp.

What is your drivetrain speed? I would weigh the benefit of slow chain and cassette wear using 3 chains to the potential negatives of weight, work, and cost.
A 9sp cassette online is what- $25 or less? A 9sp KMC chain is $12? Investing $24 for extra chains and carrying them when you could just change the chain when needed and change the cassette when needed seems like a good bit of work for little benefit.
Plus you would have to keep track of a handful of the missing-links. Thats a small issue, but still another thing.

If the cassette were an expensive 11sp wide range model, so $100 or more, I could see wanting to swap chains to prolong the cassette.



...maybe im just lazy

Tourist in MSN

I do not rotate chains. But I believe that the concept is that if you put a new chain on a worn cassette, the new chain will wear faster than it would if it was on a new cassette. So, if you ran say three chains, say 500 miles each rotation and kept rotating them, then maybe all three would be shot at about the same time as the cassette. And if my understanding is right, this would mean that you got more total miles out of the equipment than if you had been running mixtures of old and new parts.

But the last time I bought chains, I bought a bunch at $5 each. A major bike manufacturer gave a bunch of new chains to a charity, they had been installed and later taken off of the new bikes. I bought them from the charity. And last time I bought cassettes, I bought three at a total of $27 with shipping. I do not get too excited about replacing chains and cassettes.

After my last tour, my chain was so filthy that I decided not to clean it or measure stretch, I just discarded it and put on a new one.

Would I carry spare chains on a tour? Nobody has ever accused me of packing light, but even I would never carry a spare chain unless I was going to Mongolia or Elbonia or some such place.

Carbonfiberboy 

My 30,000 mile/year riding buddy rotates chains and cassettes to save money, like this: He runs one chain on a new cassette. He replaces that chain when it reaches a predetermined wear point, like we all do. He saves the chain and labels it. He repeats this process of replacing chains with new chains until his new chain skips. He immediately takes off that new chain and replaces it with chain #1 for that cassette, then at some point chain #2, etc. If he puts on an old chain from that cassette and it skips, he replaces the cassette. This system makes sense. The rotate every 500 miles plan makes no sense, IMO. Note that with my buddy's system, you will almost certainly finish your tour on the original chain and cassette, assuming both are in good condition at the start. If you were riding around the world, you'd need more chains and at least one more cassette.

Another money-saver hint from my buddy: run Campy. He can buy single Campy cogs and spacers, so he only runs 3 cogs in back. Then he only needs to replace the most worn cog, the one which is skipping. He is very strong.

indyfabz

So you are going to carry an extra chain while touring?


Not me.

nickw

30,000 miles a year? That over 80 miles a day, on average, with no days off?

fietsbob

I return from a Bike tour, 2~3 months long , and replace the chain.. BITD Sedis sport were what I used, on 6~7 speed freewheels..

gerryl

Learn something new every day - I've never heard of chain rotation and don't know anyone who does it.

FBinNY 

By coincidence the same question was asked the other day. Rather than retype my response, I'll link to it here, plus you can see the other responses there.

Carbonfiberboy 

No, most days he rode 100 miles total and then some days much less or off. 30K was his peak. Other years "only" 20K-25K. Those of us who only ride 5K/year think our consumables get expensive. Imagine 6X that expense. He's not a racer: just likes to ride his bike.

gauvins

Not really a coincidence. The thread you link to prompted me to "research" the question. Most threads are concerned by the economics (PITA vs what you potentially save). I am more interested in the particular case of summer-long tours, where the distance covered is more than the expected life of a single chain.

My first thought was to use more durable chains (e.g. Wipperman Sx).

Another approach is to replace the chain. I'd rather carry spares (300gr) than shop for what's available where we travel, something I find distracting when it becomes a must.

The logical step between carrying a spare and rotating chains is a small one. A side benefit that I anticipate is that the spare can be cleaned and lubricated when it is convenient.

I remember reading your comment, in yet another thread, about fixies' chains being replaced at elongation much higher than the 0.75% usually suggested (if I recall correctly, you suggested more than 1% and added that commercial operators would change chain & cassettes at 3%). Fixies are more tolerant because there is no alignment issue or because the rear sprocket is significantly bigger?

---

As of now I would think that I'll try two long-life chains in rotation. Might be possible to keep the cassette for a second iteration... I'll eventually ask about selective cogs replacement

nickw

How far you you planning to go during a summer long tour and what is your expected life of a chain? I wouldn't bother with changing a chain and can't image a situation where a summer tour would wear one out, unless your riding in mud, sand or someplace extreme.

Also depends on 7/8/9/10/11 spd, I think most find the lower speed stuff last a bit longer and is less sensitive to worn components.

Take care to clean and (lightly) oil your stuff on a regular basis, should last many thousands of miles....

With that said, I do change mine out frequently when training and racing to limit the chances of breaking a chain. They are relatively cheap. There you go, just contradicting myself above.

pdlamb

I rotated chains while I was trying out hot waxing them. It made sense in that I could swap a chain in a few minutes, and when all the previously waxed chains needed lubing, they all got re-waxed in one session.


For a tour, I wouldn't worry about it. Chains are heavy, and unless you've got something really exotic (which you don't want in case you need a replacement!), every bike shop you pass will have a spare chain. Buy one when you need it. It's worth another $5-10 to buy it local instead of saving by mail-ordering, especially when you're looking at $10 S&H.

FBinNY 

To clarify.

There are two ways to define the "life" of a chain.

Most bike people think in terms of a service life short enough that a replacement chain will run on the cassette. This is roughly .75% stretch (3/32" over 12"). However, chains can easily run effectively for more than double that, though afterwards the cassette will likely be toast.

There's a school of thought that finds that running a drivetrain until it skips, is actually more cost effective than replacing chains to save the cassette. Of course that answer depends on the relative cost of chains and cassettes.

Your case, is a bit more complex, because time on a tour is especially valuable, and the added weight of carrying a spare.

I don't know how far you're expecting to ride over the summer, but with anything better than total neglect of lubrication, a drivetrain should be fine for at least 3,000 and more likely 6,000+ miles. So, you needn't worry about drivetrain issues on the tour, though the cassette may be too worn for a new chain on your return.

OTOH - if you prefer to carry and rotate chains, I'm not here to talk you out of it.

BTW- the reason that chain wear is much less of a factor with single speed or IGH is that the chain is a closed loop and doesn't have the slack to climb over the teeth and skip. As such, they can transit power even when extremely stretched and running on sprockets who's teeth are worn down to nubs.

FBinNY 

Obsessing over chain war/stretch and lubrication has the side effect that people lose their sense of proportion, and worry about stuff needlessly.

Yes, poor habits can make running your drivetrain more expensive, but that's the only consequence. Chains are reliable and durable, and want very little attention. If replaced before it's tool late, the cassette is typically good for about the life of three chains. So the most you can lose by poor habits is "wasting" the other 2/3rds of the potential cassette life.

gauvins

My chains (fully loaded, minimal maintenance) have averaged 2500kms or so. As some may recall, I've gone through publicly available long-distance tourer maintenance logs and found that the reported average life of chains was close to 6000 kms based on 34 observations. As my experience seems to be closer to those of "ordinary" riders, I can only speculate as to why long distance tourers extract twice the distance from their chains. I doubt that this is due to exceptional care. I suspect that it it more of the ride-til-it-skips variety. Don't know.

This past (and our first) year we've toured twice. A 2-week 900kms and a 12-week 3000kms. Plans for the coming year are for one short tour only (kids wish for a different summer activity and everyone here agrees that change is the spice of life). We plan for another long tour 2 years from now, in North America, where resupply will not be an issue. And then, further down the road, touring in less developed places, resupply is an issue.

No worry here. Probably a consequence of my storing the bike for winter... I do not care if it costs $100 more of less this way or that way and replacement parts can be sourced anywhere on this planet with a slight penalty paid in time, $ or quality.

I spent a minimal amount of time maintaining chains this year, rarely wiping, and (over)lubricating once a week (i.e. every 500kms or so). Based on my experience gunk has had a negative impact on chains durability, so I've looked at the chain maintenance threads and eventually concluded that the most reasonable approach for us was to forget about cleaning chains with a solvent and to use the thickest wet lube on the market. With which I think that you are familiar.

Hmmm... kitchen knives... Most of us, myself included, do not care one bit about the brand, the type of steel, or the maintenance schedule. And then, for some reason, you are in a position to use a really good knife and you realize what a difference it makes. And now, every day I appreciate the moment when we cut a loaf of bread with a really good knife, (or when we carve a roast, or cut cheese, etc.).

My most recent bicycle related "obsession" was about cassettes. And now every day I ride I appreciate the unorthodox range of the mix and match I've settled upon after spending an inconsiderate amount of time trying to learn about the options.

Let's say -- interest

BigAura

I'd never consider:

(for me)Regular maintenance = boring

(for me)Carrying an extra chain on tour = unnecessary

Associated anecdote: While in college I sold shoes. We told customers to get the best wear out of your shoes you should buy two pairs and rotate them. I sold more shoes and customers never came back with any complaints. I assume it was true OR twice the time before needing new shoes was the real comfort!

Doug64

From experience, I have found that our chains last about 3500-4000 miles before they need replacing. I keep pretty detailed records on our fleet, and before every tour I check how many miles the chains have on them. If they are going to reach 3500 miles before the end of our planned tour, they are replaced regardless of the miles on them. I clean and tag the used chains noting the mileage when they were replaced. Most will eventually get used to the .75 point, measured with a Park chain checking tool.

I change the cassettes when they start skipping, which is about every 3rd or 4th chain.

I like to keep my drive train clean and well lubricated, even on tour.

However, it is not always possible. This was the last week of a wet 3,000 mile tour.

nickw

So it sounds like your tours are well within the life of a chain - it's seems to be a non-issue? I think tourers tend to get better mileage out of chains and other hardware since it's long, low stress miles. Maybe like a car driven on hwy vs city.

DropBarFan

I'm not quite convinced about the rotation idea. When cog teeth wear it's still the same distance between teeth, no? So I think using a worn chain will still produce a mismatch between chain & cog. OTOH it could be convenient to have a couple of extra chains simply so that one can clean 2 (or 3) chains at once.

Hopefully we'll see more IGH/belt touring bikes, I won't miss dealing with dirty chains.

mindbiking

Do you really want to become so mechanically involved. If it's a simple pleasure tour--as opposed to a professional competitive event--concentrate on more important things. Start with a well tuned, maintained bike, and you should be fine for about 3,000 miles plus. Enjoy the ride and adventure. A quality bicycle will do the rest. See, e.g., mindbiking.com.

wphamilton

I do almost the same thing, but because I'm cheap (I don't think I'll mess with it if and when I get a chance for my dream tour). I've got a second bike with a worn out cassette, and it gets one of the chains that are skipping on the first bike. If a new chain skips on the first bike, I dig out one of the old chains and try that. I don't know how long that will last, but so far so good.

Like FBinNY mentioned, my 7- and 8-speed cassettes are so cheap that it saves more to use chains as long as possible, even if it wears the cogs out.

DropBarFan

I see your point, OTOH it doesn't hurt to ask questions & plan ahead. Myself, I'd concentrate more on keeping a clean chain. How did you do chain cleaning on the cross-country rides? Many long-distance tourists swear by lube 'n wipe; I guess that works well enough though some bike lubes are a bit costly to use a lot to flush out grit/gunk.