20 is Plenty Campaign
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
20 is Plenty Campaign
Anyone here from Portland or Seattle that can explain the campaign for 20 MPH limits on residential streets? I believe both cities dropped the limit to 20 this year. Did it make a difference? Do cyclists feel safer (even if they aren't)? What was the default speed limit before the change?
Some of us in Nashville TN are considering a similar campaign.
Some of us in Nashville TN are considering a similar campaign.
#3
Bad example
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle and Reims
Posts: 3,074
Bikes: Peugeot: AO-8 1973, PA-10 1971, PR-10 1973, Sante 1988; Masi Gran Criterium 1975, Stevenson Tourer 1980, Stevenson Criterium 1981, Schwinn Paramount 1972, Rodriguez 2006, Gitane Federal ~1975, Holdsworth Pro, Follis 172 ~1973, Bianchi '62
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked 214 Times
in
97 Posts
Anyone here from Portland or Seattle that can explain the campaign for 20 MPH limits on residential streets? I believe both cities dropped the limit to 20 this year. Did it make a difference? Do cyclists feel safer (even if they aren't)? What was the default speed limit before the change?
Some of us in Nashville TN are considering a similar campaign.
Some of us in Nashville TN are considering a similar campaign.
__________________
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
#4
Cycleway town
Cars themselves have a lot to answer for.
20mph in a 1962 Austin Cooper on a residential street is involving, and raising the speed to 30mph is very noticeable.
20mph in any 2017 family car is mind-numbingly dull, takes up twice the road, 30-40mph comes with little notice and it's no wonder pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers are nothing but an inconvenience to proceedings.
Bring back the 500kg bubble car, strip out all the airbags and padding, and we'll soon see different attitudes.
20mph in a 1962 Austin Cooper on a residential street is involving, and raising the speed to 30mph is very noticeable.
20mph in any 2017 family car is mind-numbingly dull, takes up twice the road, 30-40mph comes with little notice and it's no wonder pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers are nothing but an inconvenience to proceedings.
Bring back the 500kg bubble car, strip out all the airbags and padding, and we'll soon see different attitudes.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,811
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,020 Times
in
572 Posts
There is a development near our beach house that has 20 mph limits and on one street there's a sign that flashes your speed in red if you're exceeding 20. There's still enough kid in me that if I'm riding through there at night I can't resist riding fast enough to trip the sign.
#6
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
If you've ever seen the shape of some Portland roads...20 would be fine.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#7
Senior Member
Our neighborhood is 25mph...but beware, 25 is viewed by many as an obnoxious suggestion.
#8
On Holiday
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,014
Bikes: A bunch of old steel bikes
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
12 Posts
A lot of small towns in NC have 20 mph limits in their center zones. Most residential areas have 25 mph limits. The only thing you can count on is that most drivers exceed the limit by at least 10 mph and at least 1/4 of them exceed it by 20 mph.
There are only 2 situations where drivers go 20 mph: 1) they pass through 20 mph quickly as they brake aggressively shortly before a traffic signal/sign/speed hump. 2) they pass through 20 mph quickly as they accelerate aggressively after leaving a traffic signal/sign/speed hump.
There are only 2 situations where drivers go 20 mph: 1) they pass through 20 mph quickly as they brake aggressively shortly before a traffic signal/sign/speed hump. 2) they pass through 20 mph quickly as they accelerate aggressively after leaving a traffic signal/sign/speed hump.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 6,204
Bikes: ...a few.
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked 409 Times
in
235 Posts
There are street in downtown Toronto that have 30 kph (~20 mph), but these streets are narrow, one way, and have cars parked on one side. Where I live, this likely would never happen, though I wish it would. In the suburbs, 40 kph is about the slowest limit through residential streets, and often times it's 50. The streets are much wider. Though 50 means that cars are routinely zipping through at 60 or more.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 6,204
Bikes: ...a few.
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2012 Post(s)
Liked 409 Times
in
235 Posts
There is a development near our beach house that has 20 mph limits and on one street there's a sign that flashes your speed in red if you're exceeding 20. There's still enough kid in me that if I'm riding through there at night I can't resist riding fast enough to trip the sign.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: LF, APMAT
Posts: 2,752
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 624 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 397 Times
in
226 Posts
In my city the speed limit is 25 mph unless otherwise posted. This pretty much covers most of the neighborhoods. However, unless there are stop signs, lights, speed bumps, and/or cops, drivers still exceed the limits.
#12
Palmer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 8,627
Bikes: Mike Melton custom, Alex Moulton AM, Dahon Curl
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1671 Post(s)
Liked 1,826 Times
in
1,062 Posts
Nothing like that here in Parts Unknown, but a local bike & 'complete the streets' group spokesman opined that 8mph was plenty in segregated bike lanes and on paths.
#14
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18380 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Portland has some of the oddest signs. Distributed by the city, but put up by the homeowners. Nothing actually says "speed limit" on the signs.
This happened after I went mostly car-free, and I find it tough to get much above 20 MPH on the bikes.
Keep in mind, this only applies to the smallest of the city streets. Any of the larger through streets have higher speed limits.
I don't pay a lot of attention to my actual speed when driving. Drive the conditions. But, 20 MPH or so is probably about right for isolated city streets. 25 MPH?
Of course, nobody actually drives the speed limit, so post 20 MPH, and people will drive 25 or 30 MPH.
This happened after I went mostly car-free, and I find it tough to get much above 20 MPH on the bikes.
Keep in mind, this only applies to the smallest of the city streets. Any of the larger through streets have higher speed limits.
I don't pay a lot of attention to my actual speed when driving. Drive the conditions. But, 20 MPH or so is probably about right for isolated city streets. 25 MPH?
Of course, nobody actually drives the speed limit, so post 20 MPH, and people will drive 25 or 30 MPH.
#17
Bad example
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle and Reims
Posts: 3,074
Bikes: Peugeot: AO-8 1973, PA-10 1971, PR-10 1973, Sante 1988; Masi Gran Criterium 1975, Stevenson Tourer 1980, Stevenson Criterium 1981, Schwinn Paramount 1972, Rodriguez 2006, Gitane Federal ~1975, Holdsworth Pro, Follis 172 ~1973, Bianchi '62
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 828 Post(s)
Liked 214 Times
in
97 Posts
Given the above comments I think it is important to point out that lowering speed limits does not work unless you also re-engineer the streets to make fast driving less appealing. In Seattle that includes narrowing the lanes, going from four lanes to two (from two in each direction to one), speed bumps, traffic circles at intersections, and so on. If you don’t do these things, Drivers will continue to speed along just as they always did.
__________________
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
Keeping Seattle’s bike shops in business since 1978
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18380 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Given the above comments I think it is important to point out that lowering speed limits does not work unless you also re-engineer the streets to make fast driving less appealing. In Seattle that includes narrowing the lanes, going from four lanes to two (from two in each direction to one), speed bumps, traffic circles at intersections, and so on. If you don’t do these things, Drivers will continue to speed along just as they always did.
I.E. Everything that would make them dangerous for all road users.
Thinking about Portland, the difference between a 30 MPH street and a 20 MPH street is pretty minimal, and really depends on whether it is a straight through road.
#19
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Cars themselves have a lot to answer for.
20mph in a 1962 Austin Cooper on a residential street is involving, and raising the speed to 30mph is very noticeable.
20mph in any 2017 family car is mind-numbingly dull, takes up twice the road, 30-40mph comes with little notice and it's no wonder pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers are nothing but an inconvenience to proceedings.
Bring back the 500kg bubble car, strip out all the airbags and padding, and we'll soon see different attitudes.
20mph in a 1962 Austin Cooper on a residential street is involving, and raising the speed to 30mph is very noticeable.
20mph in any 2017 family car is mind-numbingly dull, takes up twice the road, 30-40mph comes with little notice and it's no wonder pedestrians, cyclists and other drivers are nothing but an inconvenience to proceedings.
Bring back the 500kg bubble car, strip out all the airbags and padding, and we'll soon see different attitudes.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit/AA
Posts: 8,207
Bikes: 2016 Novara Mazama
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3640 Post(s)
Liked 81 Times
in
51 Posts
If a road needs to be less than 25MPH, it should be a dead end and not used as any sort of throughput, plain and simple. 20MPH in my car is about idling revs in 2nd, I really have no interest in running through town at 4000RPM in 1st.
And if your kids can't keep from running in front of cars, keep them in the back yard. If I'm driving like my kids live there, I am driving 30 anyhow.
And if your kids can't keep from running in front of cars, keep them in the back yard. If I'm driving like my kids live there, I am driving 30 anyhow.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18380 Post(s)
Liked 4,512 Times
in
3,354 Posts
Again, what I observed in Portland was that the basic speed limit on unmarked residential streets is now 20 MPH.
However, much of West Portland is designed like a curvy maze. East Portland is straighter and more grid-like, but no guarantee streets will actually go through.
In general, one can hit a mid-range feeder street that will be marked with 30 or 35 MPH or so, within 5 blocks or so. And, a few more blocks, and perhaps a street marked even higher. And, of course freeways, which I think are 55 MPH in the Portland Metro area (but, NOBODY pays attention to that).
Nobody is driving the 35 miles or so from Hillsboro to Troutdale at 20 MPH unless there are several major accidents on the freeways.
However, much of West Portland is designed like a curvy maze. East Portland is straighter and more grid-like, but no guarantee streets will actually go through.
In general, one can hit a mid-range feeder street that will be marked with 30 or 35 MPH or so, within 5 blocks or so. And, a few more blocks, and perhaps a street marked even higher. And, of course freeways, which I think are 55 MPH in the Portland Metro area (but, NOBODY pays attention to that).
Nobody is driving the 35 miles or so from Hillsboro to Troutdale at 20 MPH unless there are several major accidents on the freeways.
#23
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
Racing for Satan's Pinks!
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,177
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked 71 Times
in
51 Posts
I live in a Washington suburb of Portland, and drive more like 20KPH on small residential streets. PDX and Seattle have real streets in residential areas--we have minimal to no sidewalks, no lighting, inconsistent shoulders. I drive like a rolling speed bump when I'm in the car. The general behavior in my town, especially of white men in large SUVs and trucks, is to interpret 25 MPH as 45.