patc

Yes, I was aware of that. I don't know of any specific/known instance in Canada, but certainly the mindset was present, whether or not conspiracies existed. Also present was a mindset that public transit was for the poor/elderly/second class, and we are barely starting to get over that now.

Brian

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I enjoy all sorts of outdoor sports. Not just mountain biking, but motorcycle riding as well, and have owned several 4WDs. I did not drive a 5000lb Toyota Landcruiser as my everyday vehicle. Never mind fuel prices and environmental concerns - it would have been highly impractical. This vehicle was highly modified for off-road use. Purpose built from the ground up for going places not accessible to your average 4WD or Starbucks parking lot SUV.

I'll probably haul my utility bikes in a trailer behind our car, not lug them around in a 4WD. But I'm not sure where they'd be delivered to anyway, so it's hardly an issue right now. The thing is, I'm pretty keen to use my bike more and more when practical, and my wife is too.



Now that's the kind of logic I don't get. I never used my car to identify with the size of my ego, genitals, or wallet. As I stated above, my 4WD was built for off-road. I saw no sense in driving daily. I worked weekends as a photographer for 6 months out of the year in Malibu. I'm sure PatC will agree that it's not easy to transport photo gear by bicycle. Certainly not through the mountain roads of Malibu. For that, I drove an economical, yet twisty road friendly Honda Civic. Carried all my gear, and I had to fill it up about once a month. The rest of the time, I drove a new RAV4. The girly-size SUV. Room for my girlfriend's kids, or our dogs, or all my studio gear. AWD for trips to the snow. Yakima racks on the roof for weekend getaways in Cambria.

I guess my point is that I don't identify myself as someone that sees my car as a status symbol, but rather someone that views them as another tool to get a specific job done. I do the same with my bikes - one for each task or type of riding.

Brad M

Ditto in Hamilton. We had streetcars from 1874 to 1951. They were originally horsedrawn before converting to electricity. It was also in the fifties when all of our downtown streets converted to one-way traffic, which was basically the beginning of the end for the core.

Suburbia isn't showing any signs of slowing down here. City council pays no attention to their "master plans" for smart growth. Greenfield development still runs rampant. I cringe every time I pass the newest sprawl dvelopment and "power centre" shopping disaster. Our pub transit is going to have to service these areas, most likely without any additonal funding aside from a fare increase. No sign of a return to rail anywhere within the city, but hopefully they increase GO train service to Toronto.

There's a bit of hope on the horizon. Only a week ago two of the aforementioned one-way streets was converted back to two-way, much to the dismay of the drivers used to having freeways running through the city. Parts of the streets had been converted a few years ago, and nothing but good news has become of it. The previously run-down part of town is now blooming with businesses and art galleries.

Thor29

A lot of people are car free because they see the big picture and want to minimize the harm that they do. Unfortunately, a lot of people (most people) in a capitalistic society only consider what they as an individual want. And often, each individual decision, on its own, wouldn't be that big of a deal. One car by itself doesn't do too much damage. But multiply them by hundreds of thousands and you've got carmageddon.

Could every person on the planet have a 4WD for fun and giggles, a car for hauling stuff, a couple of motorcycles, 15 bikes, etc.? No. The planet simply can't support that much fun for everyone. Feel guilty about it or not, that is simply the truth.

attercoppe

Pedex brings up a good point, coming close to my personal views. People in general just seem (to me) to be ignorant of their impact, whether it be driving, shopping at the megamart, not recycling - pick your cause. The comments here are skewed towards anti-car sentiment because you're on the Bike Forums. If you were to go over to the Recycling Forums, they would rant more about all the trash people produce and send straight to the landfill, and overpackaged products, and not composting. If you were to go over to ihategigantocorp.com, they'll be bemoaning the death of the mom and pop store, and lambasting people who support big businesses, and preaching to the choir about how low cost goods actually cost us all more. Too many people just don't think about their actions and their effects, and even if it's brought to their attention, they're too lazy/comfortable to change. People will do whatever they want to do. You will continue to drive, because that's what you want to do. You don't want to drastically change the life that you and your family are comfortable with just to avoid ever driving. That's ok - you recognize the impact your driving has, you try to limit it, and you want to counteract it by building a sustainable home. That's much further than most people are willing to go.

At the risk of being flamed, I'll also say this: I would not be at all surprised if many car-free folks on here are car-free or first became car-free either as a choice due to economic necessity, or not by their choice at all. I know I'm in that first category. After moving, I took a job that paid much less than my previous one, and my rent is quite a bit higher, since I now live alone rather than sharing a place. Currently, I really can't afford to have my vehicle inspected and licensed, much less buy gas all the time (even at today's rates, never mind $3+/gal from a few months ago). This is part, perhaps most, of the reason I picked up biking again. I'm glad it happened; I'm healthier, happier, and more aware of my part in the grand ecological scheme of things. It took being forced to step away from the car culture for me to be able to see it clearly. I don't refuse to drive or ride in a car, I still own mine and will eventually get it "legal" and probably use it occasionally. But I will do so more aware than ever before of the impact I'm having by doing so, and I will severely limit that impact.

Bekologist

some food for thought:

Around these parts, the biggest contributor to pollution throughout Puget Sound: the family car.

"Green" Seattlites can have a chicken coop in their backyard, live in a house built with reclaimed materials, use rain buckets, have solar panels, and as soon as they step into their Toyota LandCruisers to go to the local bike advocacy meeting they become a collective member of the largest polluting group in Puget Sound.

Like I posted earlier, we all have an environmental footprint, so some pollution is undeniable. And it is very easy for Seattlites to justify their car use. That doesn't make driving a personal car any less harmful to the region.

My friend Linda is an example of Seattle's 'green hiprocracy' movement.

She likes organic food. She doesn't own a clothes dryer. She keeps her thermostat low. She's also an avid biker. She recently spent 6 months as a cyclotourist in France.

However, she drives her car all over Seattle like she was a little old lady from pasadena with a gashuffing addiction. Just this week she was justifying to me how she drove her car three miles to the movie theater, because she figured she'd pick up a loaf of bread at the same time. Her car is an 80's gas sipping Honda, so she doesn't pay much at the pump, but still pollutes quite a bit with it.
Linda's less green than she thinks and emblematic of how myopic Americans have become about their personal automobile use.

tacomee

Ah, first off, what the heck do you THINK you know about utility bikes or trailers? And why would anybody buy one from you? Most cycling meccas in the USA already have top shelf utility bike builders who, get this, ride the bikes they produce everywhere. They really know what works because they live bike centered lifestyles. Now, if you were going to buy a utility bike, who are going to buy from? Not some dumbass who likes owning a SUV.

Currently you're on a *car free* internet board picking fights with the future customers of a business you're planning to start. Jeeze dude, who cares WTF you happen to think about bikes or cars or anything? You're just too plain stupid to talk with.

Yeah, go ahead and keep driving-- but stay out of the utility bike business, because quite frankly, you don't know sh** about it.

cooker

That's great news. Baby steps, Bob!

lala

I do feel a certain amount of contempt for those who indulge in conspicuous consumption whether in the name of recreation, or other reasons.

edit: good points, bekologist.

jamesdenver

i like cars for road trips/camping trips to remote wyoming/colorado, and places off the beaten path (same reason i have my pilots certs)

i HATE cars in the city, and wish we could weed more out through better transit and pedestrian facilities.

nathank

that's about how i fell too. cars are just no efficient in the city -- too much space for parking, streets, etc. and they destroy the "social environment" - not to mention traffic and pollution and the danger to pedestrians.

Brian

Thank you for that insightful assessment of my bike knowledge and business acumen. But I don't think my target customer would be ignorant morons like you. Please, do us all an electricity-saving favor, and go stick your head in a gas oven. You need to relax, so take several deep breaths.

randya

Unfortunately, 95+ percent of Americans don't think like this, and IMO it won't become commonplace in America in my lifetime without dramatic sweeping social changes, whatever drives them...

becnal

Ok, but so then why is this whole thread in the living car free forum???

Brian

Scroll to the top of the page, and read the thread title.

Roody

expat--First, you did not deserve the really rude flame you got from one member. That was sickening.

A lot of us do have a philosophical contempt toward cars and car culture. Few want to see cars totally eliminated, but most would like to see their use strictly curtailed.I don't think we hate car owners, although we do feel sorry for them as they seem to be slaves of their own technology. I agree with you that cars can be great tools; most often they are our masters, and we don't like that.

Others have told you about reasons for disliking cars, but not much mention was made of what I feel is one of their most damaging powers. That is the way they have changed the design of our cities. Modern cities consist of rotten cores surrounded by the endless expanse of the suburban wasteland. First the richer people got in their cars and abandoned the center cities, then the jobs followed, leaving behind blight and poverty. We no longer live in communities. We live isolated on ugly 1/4 acre plots, miles away from our jobs, schools and recreation. Bus and train travel are inconvenient, Cycling is difficult and walking is nearly impossible in most of America. We even drive 15 miles to go to a gym to get some exercise! None of this nightmarish city design would have been possible wothout our favorite tool and master, the private automobile.

Bekologist

If anyone is looking for a step back in time to what community would be like devoid of ALL cars, I strongly encourage a a trip to Mackinac Island in Lake Michigan and relax for a few days. It truly is a paradise lost, if only the damn fudge didn't cost so much!!!

Brian

Thanks Roody. I'm a big boy, and I wasn't exactly hurt by his comments. If someone educated insults me, there may be a bit of a sting to it, but ignorance is like being pelted with a cotton ball.

If I really wanted to start an argument, I'd do a poll to find out how many are car free by choice, without any financial reasons attached. To make $70k/year and forgo a car seems rather noble when compared to the person who can't afford the car anyway. That is not meant to be an insult to anyone. If anything, it's just worded badly.

I-Like-To-Bike

How does the fudge get there? How should anyone get there?
How much will the fudge cost when the ingredients are delivered by horse, bicycle or foot?

KrisPistofferson

I think this is an interesting thread. I have been proudly car-free for over 5 years now, and I've gotten to the point where I never even miss them. Like Expat, I am working on starting a cycling-related business, I agree with many of the points made about the impact of "car culture"....but I make a living as an auto mechanic. Should I feel like a complete sellout, because some have adopted a fundamentalist, anti-car system of dogma?

cooker

I don't know, but I guess we're about to find out. People like the Chippewa/Ojibway lived on Mackinac Island in the past and supported themselves with a local economy, and white settlers lived in Northen Michigan long before cars were invented - in fact Sault Ste Marie, Michigan, not far from Mackinac Island, is something like the third oldest (European settled) city in the USA.

One of the problems with a heavily subsidized transportation system is that local production of basic commodities gets undermined by goods produced at a distance and transported in bulk. People have lost the habit and skill of growing their own food locally or putting up preserves, because they can get Florida oranges or Chilean apples year round. As fuel gets expensive, we'll pay a higher price for goods transported over a long distance, and we'll see a return to more local production, not just of food, but of many day-to-day items.

Bekologist

Now we are dwelving further and further into the nuance and inevitability of dealing with automobiles in our culture. To I like to bike, don't piss in the campfire so much- Mackinac Island is one of the few places in America there are NO private automobiles so everyone uses horses, bikes or walks. But yes, most people drive to the ferry terminal and yes, the sugar for the fudge is imported, very astute of you to point out the realities of a global economy.

Yes, Kris, I think you should feel like a partial sellout if you believe strongly in a car free lifestyle. That doesn't mean its wrong for you to work in the auto industry, and expat, wanting to play on motorcycles and ride around on gas powered playthings is okay if you personally want to. BUT THESE DON'T MESH WITH YOUR SELF DESCRIBED BELIEF SYSTEMS!

It doesn't mesh with the environmental or 'car free' ethic. So, to expat, your hobbies should make you feel a bit guilty if you want to live a green lifestyle, which it sounds like you do. Or are these other lifestyle choices (solar, rain buckets, etc.. ) economic, versus environmental, decisions for you? I think my friend Linda is more 'cheap' than 'green' for example.

The only good 'car free' auto mechanic would be one that monkey wrenches, then proclaims, "this infernal chariot is toast! lets see about getting you a nice bike to ride..." But hey, I've worked as a sellout to my ethical beliefs before, and it SUCKED. But, don't get me wrong, I can like cars, too. I was ogling someones classic Jaguar V-12 roadster yesterday.

Give me an engine I can adjust the valves and monkey with the Strombergs, I like engines and cars in a technical regard, looked as inventions and tools of utility, but independant of their environmental impact.

For people in the Puget Sound area the reality is this, and maybe in many american cities too:
-The biggest contributor to pollution here is the family car.-
Cars are the culprit. It's not power plants. Its not industry. Its people in their cars.

KrisPistofferson

Thanks buddy. And yet my "environmental footprint" remains unchanged from if I worked in the local food co-op, but I remain a "little Eichmann." I don't automatically think that cars are evil, just their over-use. I do what I can for the environment, yet I don't hate on "cagers," it's just a matter of minding my own business instead of being a car-free puritan, which is winning us no friends, in case anyone cares to notice.

Bekologist

its just ethics, Kris.

KrisPistofferson

It's just a matter of recognizing "car culture" for the abstraction it is, not anthropomorphizing blind process, recognizing Ludditism for what it is, a silly, all-or-nothing proposal,(if we can't do it sustainably, then sustainability is not possible.)