Charles Wahl

Yeah, in 1944, after they'd been overrun by the Allies. I don't hold a grudge against the Italians, but let's not pretend that the country had a change of heart and came over to the right side.

peripatetic

Wow, this discussion has wandered.

embankmentlb

The Italians, Japanese, Germans & the rest are not bad people. The leadership used propaganda to stir them into a frenzy. Very similar to the US today. How many time have i heard? "That Sedam has dem wepens of mass deestruction" or "Ya no that Obama cat is one of dem mussliums"

I have done all the damage i can do! Marry Christmas.

RobbieTunes

I have Campy, Shimano, and Suntour.

All a different type of apple.

Mooo

Back in the 80's...

I had a hard time imagining a craftsman at work in a shop in Yokohama or elsewhere in the orient, turning out bicycles because he was an artisan and that's what artisans do. I could conjure up that image in Italy. (today, it's reversed - all the Pinny's are carbies, and it's the Toei's that are done by torchlight.
Really, the Japanese components at the time seemed - to me - antiseptic, top 40 pop music, wonder-bread bland.

But they did work pretty well, didn't they.

Fast forward, and the only things Campy I have left is a set of brake levers and a fixed cup from a BB.
The Nuovo Record did shift like a machined piece of bar stock compared to a Cyclone.

Come to think of it, the Huret Duopar shifted like a Citroen 2CV looks: perfunctory yet oddly, next to the comparable long cage SunTour product.
Sun Tour... if it isn't translated as "good stuff" in somebody's mother tongue, we need to invent a new language.

Kommisar89

Man, some of that stuff belongs over at the P&R forum. I guess I'm always perplexed when these discussions come up. It would be one thing I guess to argue about what worked better back in the day and why but then that really isn't even an arguement. Most of us know Sun Tour and Shimano worked better by the 80's and some might even argue that should include the 70's. But for the present day, if functionality were my primary concern I'd be out riding one of my modern bikes. Rather, I choose components based on what looks right on the bike, is period correct, and is something I might have actually used at the time. And for me, getting into bikes around 1970, Campagnolo was the Holy Grail of components. Shimano and Sun Tour are what came on those 45-lb department store bikes. Simplex and Huret came on mid-price bikes. I didn't even know there were Japanese bikes outside of Japan back then and certainly never saw a bike at a bike shop equipped with Japanese components. Sometime in the late 70's my freind bought a Panasonic and that was the first quality Japanese bike I ever saw. It had that weird freewheeling crankset, I think it might have been Shimano but I'm not sure. So for me it's Campagnolo on my Italian bikes of whatever period. Maybe you could talk me into MAVIC componants on a late 80's Italian bike. That would be interesting.

txvintage

On my daily riders it's either Shimano or Suntour, but mostly Shimano. That's not by design, but more of coincidence.

That being said, on certain bikes, Campy rules. I have one full Campy fitted bike and it just oozes soul and artristy. I don't ride it very often, but it's my Shwag Wagon, without a doubt. It's my shameless indugence to embracing my inner "OCP".

The one thing I will give Campy over any other componenet is the ability to rebuild it. I have an early set of Ergo brifters that are 8 speed. I've always known I can rebuild them if needed, but I just found out I convert them to 9 sp for a mere $15 more in parts. It may even be possible to go to 10 sp, but I need some confirmation on that.

Six jours

I raced on SunTour for a while during that time period. Pretty much everyone else was on Campy, with the occasional Galli gruppo thrown in. I was and am sure that the SunTour kit was the best stuff out there, although I preferred Campy brakes.

I eventually switched back to Campy because I got tired of taking crap about it. You weren't a "serious" bike racer unless you were using Super Record. The sport was conservative back then. (Hard for a new guy to believe, I'm sure.)

karmat

+1

It's the bomb. I ride a V-GT every day and it's a dream. NOS one cost me 1/5 what a Campy part would have. Weighs close enough to not matter. Looks vintage, and has nice lines.

Karl

mike

Excellent response Herr Kommissar.

sailorbenjamin

Aren't MiniCoopers made by BMW these days? In Ohio alongside my Hondas?
I think the reason people have trouble with the Japanese is not the war but the battle between the unions and globalization. Japan was the target of that back then. A lot of folks just used war memories to stir the patriots up.
Japanese components are great but you can get them out of any dumpster. (Most of my bikes have dumpster score japanese stuff).
You can find French stuff in the dumpsters too but so what.
That Italian stuff you have to pay money for. I'll let you know next time I find some for free.
The Japanese stuff is just so ubiquitous these days.

Kommisar89

I agree, the war had little to do with it. If you had fought in the war you were in your mid to late fourties during the bike boom, not the demographic driving the market. And after all, German and Italian stuff was selling just fine back then. I know when I was stationed in Germany in the 80's nobody had any issues with the war (I should say we Americans didn't, the Brits still seemed to be kinda pissed about it. Not Sure about the Canadians) and I sat in many a pub listening to old men tell war stories. They all seemed to have served on the Russian front oddly enough Anyway, I think the issue was more related to the bad reputation the Japanese had at the time for producing inferior quality products. We're talking the 60's and early 70's and German products were well respected and there weren't really a lot of Italian products to speak of back then, maybe shoes and fashion products, but the Japanese had a reputation for making cheap toys, bad Godzilla movies, and tiny little tin can cars that nobody wanted (at least until the gas crisis). The days of rock solid Hondas and Toyotas that run forever were still a decade away. And, as I mentioned in an earlier post, crappy gas pipe department store bikes came with Japanese components. When you walked into a real bike shop even the entry level bikes were equipped with Huret or Simplex and various other European components and all the top racers used European components, usually Campagnolo. It's difficult to break into any market with a new product or design but the Japanese did great job. It just took time. By the 80's guys in my age group were often moving on to other things and the young people of that decade who were getting into bikes were much more familiar with the quality Japanese products that started becoming available in the late 70's so Japanese products didn't need to overcome that handicap.

vinfix

I agree with Sorefeet on this. Last year I built up an all-Campy bike from an assortment of NOS and used parts- except for a Suntour Cyclone RD. I put on a 7-speed freewheel and the Nuovo Record just doesn't have the range- and it's much more expensive. I remember back in the day I had a pair of Suntour Superbe pedals, black with the polished aluminum spindles. Wish I still had 'em, or could find a new pair now.

YungBurke

I agree about the collectability of campy/ european components, but I love suntour. I have a Fuji with original suntour ARX components and I love the look and feel all the parts. Also, its kind of neat that its a defunct company as long as you take care of it well. I feel like on a Bianchi, go for campy if possible. On my fuji I wouldnt want to put italian components because I feel like it would be out of place

fender1

Stick a modern Shimano deraileur (front or rear) on your vintage bike (in friction mode) and you will not miss the older Suntour or Campy. Save those for the pictures you post on BF and when you want to ride, install the Shimano. You will be glad you did.

Six jours

I don't see that the very latest top-of-the-line Dura-Ace shifts any better than my old SunTour Superbe Pro, whether in friction or indexing. Frankly, I still prefer the gentle SunTour "click" as compared to the artless Shimano "CLANK!" in index mode.

Old dropped parallelogram Campy, of course, isn't in the same ballpark when used in friction, let alone with Stynchro. But then, how many times has Paris-Roubaix been won with SunTour?

tacomee

Ah, that's because nobody good raced Suntour-- it was great stuff. Smart bikeshops always push Campy and Dura Ace to the wannbe racer crowd. It's easiest way to sucker them into spending money a bike that they really don't need.

Six jours

That's my point -- race on Sunday sell on Monday, and SunTour didn't sponsor enough top professionals. Anybody that remembers the Superconfex boys, though, can tell you about some good bike racers winning big races on Superbe Pro.

G piny parnas

wow- verbose--- campy is the poop--- hands down--- don't care about asian parts-- dude, get real--
ferrrari vs toyota---- campi parts look and in most cases perform outright like white gold!

Fissile

You're being a wise guy, or you're a victim of the US education system, or both. Which is it?

Ford never met Hitler. Hitler never visited the United States. Hitler got the idea for the VW when he read a bio on Ford while he(Hitler) was doing a jail sentence in Germany for trying to forcibly overthrow the legally elected German government in the 1920's.

I don't know if Hitler kept Crazy Henry's picture in the Führer Bunker, but it was a fact that Henry was a peculiar kind of anti-Semite. Ford owned and operated his own newspaper, The Dearborn Independent. Ford personally wrote numerous anti-Semitic editorials for this paper. The editorials where bound and printed in a book titled, The International Jew. Many Ford dealers would give away this book to customers with the purchase of a new Ford automobile. Here's the strange part, while Ford was publishing Jew-baiting rants, he employed over 3,000 Jews in his auto company. And it gets weirder still. During the 1930's, Ford built the largest auto assembly plant in the world, not in the US, but in the Soviet Union.

Eventually Ford was sued for libel in the US. The settlement required Ford to sell his newspaper operation, stop printing his book, and to endow a charitable foundation (The Ford Foundation). The Ford Foundation is still around today and funds a lot of lefty stuff in the "arts and humanities". BTW, original copies of The International Jew are valuable collector's items today.

Not enough history-of-the-weird for you? In 1949, VW was trying to get on its feet and sell some cars in the US. VW management tried to convince Henry Ford II(Crazy Henry's grandson, Crazy Henry died in 1946) to sell VW's through Ford Dealers. Henry II took a look at the sample cars that VW brought over to the US, and told the VW people that Americans would never buy a car like that. Henry II than turned to one of his underlings and said, "That car is a ****box."

History you'll never hear in school, kids.

G piny parnas

I agree with your assessment of ol Henry---I didn't like his mass produced derailleurs either--- sumething
smells

embankmentlb

A crazy personal story. 2004 I was to board a flight from New York to Israel on their airline. I took along a soft bound book to read on the way. "The history of the beetle". Lots of references to Hitler & Ford.
They search my baggage prior to boarding & flagged me as a security threat. It was marked on my boarding ticket. I was searched & paired with an Israel security agent until i was physically on the plane were my passport was given to an attendant on board the plain & later returned in Israel. They were very polite but drop dead serious. I assume the book was the flag that started it all but who knows? This was like a 3 hour process. Just before i boarded the plain i explained that i needed to use the restroom. My female escort told me if i insisted on going it would end my trip. It made great conversation on the 10+ hour flight as most everyone knew me as the Terrorist.

miamijim

Someone didnt work in bike shop during the 80's and early 90's.

Six jours

Or even born by then.

G piny parnas

campi is it--- Im as old as your stepdad--- dont cry--- polished campi is like jewelry--- nobody, really, can be
seriously impressed by sun tour--- I like white bros and phil --- but campi will always be valued!!! --- now go eat your cereal-- youll be late for school....................................