3alarmer 

...French metric tubing does seem to produce a bicycle frame that feels and handles quite differently than the tubing diameters the Italians were using. Add to that some of the other differences in geometry, and you get a bicycle that "feels" quite different when you ride it. The better Gitanes, like that one, are also valued by come people who like them. Again, this is personal preference. The "drunks" comment references the quality control that shows up on Gitane's of that era, not the overall ride and feel. Gitane of that time did produce some spotty quality in their brazing and overall fit and finish.

If that is your preferred bicycle, there are many other French bicycle frames from the 70's (and even earlier) to explore.

The Simplex components can be vexatious, but there are workarounds for all of that, if you like the way it rides.

It's hard to picture how the saddle position on this bike, versus your photo of your Colnago, could both feel good to the same rider.

Steel Charlie

I've given up on suggesting to people who obviously need advice that they should seek it out. They have come to terms with the world in their own way and have no interest in what others have done. Just remember what Thumper was told.

PTL011

I don't know if there's a vintage bike fitter around me. I haven't found one yet.

The Colnago pic up top was from the original seller. I fixed the saddle already, will take some pictures later of the new result. Believe it or not, both the Colnago I picked up and that Gitane were 59/60cm CTT. I usually ride a bit smaller at a 56-58cm CTT on account of the longer racing stems like the Cinellis prevalent on racing bikes from that era. But the short Pivo stem on the Gitane created an effect of the perfect geometry on that 60cm.

Even still, the Colnago...honestly, to me, with all the supposed bells and whistles, was absolutely no better than my formula II bianchi Campe D'I. I would take the formula II any day over that. My take is that the smaller diameter French tubing made the French bike feel ligher, nimbler, without sacrificing the 'connection' with the ground that the Japanese bikes missed. The Japanese, though I love them, were just a bit too light (Tange 1) and thus feels somewhat out of touch with the ground. The Italians, at least the ones I tried, you felt every pedal, every down step onto the ground. It was almost like you were sprinting with your legs on the ground instead of with wheels. You...certainly I, felt everything...and I would prefer more of a 'lifted' feel rather than a 'grounded' one as if I am running with my legs.

chain_whipped

Those bikes were mostly designed for racing use and any fair comparison should involve 'appropriate' era race wheelset AND quality tubulars only. That's what the frame builder wanted.

Its funny reading by many when they compare to this and that when some have garden hose clinchers or heavy 27" setups, geo changes.

Piff 

Much as I said in your other thread about the 'best japanese road bike', the best is relative to the rider. No doubt someone else would find the Colnago to be magic and your Gitane to be pedestrian. I also think you really ought to do something about the Gitane's saddle.

When available, do you look at geometry diagrams/tables of bike frames? That will help you to figure out your preference. And I'm not sure I completely agree with your hypothesis regarding tubing and lightness/groundedness... frame geometry, tube butting/diameter, and tires width/quality all play a huge part in feel. I would also argue so does saddle angle and bike fit

Classtime 

PTL011 is still new to C&V (There is no 84 IM). Without looking at his STRAVA, I suspect there are very few if any 100K rides with significant climbing and descending on those 8 high end bikes. At least he provides DS photos.

tendency

100% agree. I think many of the 1980s japanese bikes ride better than the italians - it's just the italians have the 'mystique' factor. my all time favorite steel bike is a 1986 nishiki team issue - unbelievable ride better than any italian ive ridden to date.

EDIT: and, lol, don't forget you're gonna get alot of old farts answers on here and they came of age when the only bikes that mattered were the italian ones and everything else was a distant 2nd. much of it is sub conscious bias that many in that age group suffer from .. flame wars begin lol.

seagrade 

According to my opinion any comparison of frames starts with the same set of wheels and tyres, and matching saddle setback and reach to handlebars, and any assessment of a classic/vintage used bicycle starts after a check of alignment and wheel dish and headset adjustment.

To judge all bicycles of a marque, or all frames of a given model, on the basis of a single 30/40/50-year old used example that may have been to hell and back, figuratively speaking, seems to me an unreliable process.

I note with passing interest that the OP’s Gitane above has a Challenge Strada Bianca rear tyre. I can’t tell from the photo whether clincher or tubular but possibly enough in itself to make a noticeable difference from whatever the Colnago has holding its rims from the ground.

Two fine-looking classics by the way, each with plenty to like and lots of further potential.

icemilkcoffee 

Agreed. You need to be running the same tires and saddle to really do an apples to apples comparison. And the seating position and handlebar position have to be set identically. I think the OP is in a unique position to do exactly that with his Bianchi, Gitane and Colnago.

3alarmer 

...longer stems usually show up on bikes with shorter top tubes. I don't think I have ever had a bike that I didn't need to change out the stem on, as part of the process to make it fit my anatomy well.

...if you find the road shock objectionable, the usual remedy is to go with wider tires. At that point in time (when yours was made), there was still clearance for a variety of tire sizes on your bike. I run 700x25's on mine, but if you look at the photos people have posted, you'll see that there's room for at lest 700x28, and it would not surprise me if 700x32 might fit. I don't know what's on yours, now. Also, a longer wheelbase bicycle frame will always soak up more road shock than something designed as a road racer.

But if you are convinced it's not the bike for you, I would just resell it. As has already been suggested.

3alarmer 

...I'm very thankful that the next couple of generations of riders have managed to overcome that subconscious bias thing.

Sir_Name 

One peculiarity I’ve noticed with mine is that it seems to in general amplify how I’m feeling on a given day. More so than any other bike in my den. If I’m feeling flat with empty legs, the ride feel can also be a bit flat. Planted, but flat. If I’ve had my rest and Wheaties, and can really crank on top of the gear, the bike opens up and we can get in sync. If it doesn’t work for you, then that’s that, no problemo. Really though, I’d give it some very good tires with latex tubes, the wheels a repack and some attention with a spoke wrench, then several rides with a couple wrenches to dial the fit best you can. Borrow others’ expertise as needed. After, take it out for a long ride on one of those good days. See how she goes. Worst case, it sounds like you wouldn’t have an issue getting your money back out at least in tact, even with a bit of effort added to the tires and wheels. Then you still end up with a nice lesson in what to look out for in the next. Good luck and enjoy, it’s a beauty!

By the way, which Wolbers are on it now? What rims? Tough to tell from the pic, and I’ll echo others in saying tire choice along with fit have an outsized impact on “feel.”

Classtime 

Both tires and wheels will make a difference. (Also crank length, Q factor and cadence via same chainrings and cogs)
I also believe that a road racing bike was designed and redesigned over the years to ride on the road well with a particular tire size. Fat tires will change the trail and bottom bracket numbers which on some bikes will be more or less noticeable than others.

Threads like this make me miss all the bikes that I thought were better than the rest.

jetboy 

the obvious answer is that the Italians inspired the world- and the world then took that inspiration and ran with it. My Japanese steel, Japanese crafted Zunow- is a love letter to Italy. and yes, its very good - but because and not despite. I just purchased a Centurion Cinelli- full blood italian even if it was commissioned by an American company. its also very friggin good. but perhaps because of the American touches, its a little more all around and less purpose race. which fits me fine. it DOES take the hills like a mad thing though- great!

its at least 80% mental people- if you think its great- then it is and the body will follow.

repechage

you need to measure them yourself.
catalog specs and heaven forbid magazine specs of the day are so so wrong often.
European Continent bikes never used the imperial measures for example. "Rounding errors"...

bottom bracket height.... ok, what tires?
use bottom bracket drop.

Piff 

Don't do this to me, my world is crashing down around
There go all those wasted hours poring over catalogs...

PTL011

I am very curious, since you seem to know a lot more about these French bikes than I...was the Gitane ever considered the better of the French brands in its day? As compared to the Peugeot and Motobecane? Was this particular Gitane that I had one of the higher ones in the lineup for that year in the catalogues? I think it's an early 70s.. Which position exactly was it for racing frames that year?

To this day I cannot understand why the Peugeot was considered a racing frame, every single one I tried from the PX to the CFX-10 Super and every variety of the Ps in between felt like driving an intergalactic battleship; far too bloated to call itself a racing bike. My impression of it was like driving my father's old 80/90 something Ford Crown Victoria, versus the Raleigh Competition GS or Specialized Allez Epic which was precise, nimble, agile, and very responsive. All of the Peugeots, except the Vitus Dural 979 framed aluminum, were like the Titanic, which was just one step short in feel to the UPS delivery truck of a bike that's the 700c Surly Disc Trucker...

I was reading up on how people were saying they were rocking and beating others at L'Eroica with these...insanity...

PTL011

The Gitane wasn't perfect when I first tried it. But what happened was the seat bolt on the seat post wasn't tightened properly and it slipped, tilted down, and then stuck there. Act of God, sheer luck, what have you, it was then that I found my perfect geometry. I was sulking all afternoon about how I landed a lemon that was gonna be too big for me, after buying it.

But, I still say this though, NOTHING, and I mean absolutely nothing , from that era that I tried (and I tried a lot to try to find the right ones) can beat my Centurion Ironman. With the Wolbers on, and everything literally being original (I have a red Expert with 600SIS all around), I can take on guys who's been doing rides everyday for years on their post 2007 carbon framed Italian-Bianchi, Cinelli, what have you... at my local biking clubs on 48 mile loops all day long..the Ironman was literally the greatest racing bike I ever owned.

It seems to me that with the Japanese bikes from that era, you feel less of the bike as you are going- especially fast on a level path, but with the Italians, though they are nice...I suppose...you felt every bit of the bike as you are riding it. What I can think of is the idea between driving an 80s/early 90s Mercedes vs. a 90s Toyota Camry. You felt the heaviness and the stiffness of the steering wheel on the Mercedes as you are driving it, not so much with the nimble Camry.

I liked that Camry feel better, especially when I want to focus on the ride, the race, or the climb and not be constantly reminded of the bike itself.

PTL011

It's not road shock. I don't mean like it transferred every bump and crack in the road to your wrist like on a thin splined triple butted frame, what I mean is as you stepped down on the pedal, you really felt the bike with every push and it's stiff. That's not the case with the Japanese bikes from that era. You went faster on the Japanese bikes, but you didn't feel more of the bike, in your legs and butt, as you accelerated/pushed harder/pedaled faster.

And I don't think it's a component issue. This is the common result across all the Japanese and Italian bikes I tried. Most of them have original, period correct components.

seagrade 

Cheers thanks, but my knowledge of French racing bicycles doesn’t go much past knowing that many marques spanned the spectrum from department store Hi-Ten steel 10-speeds to premium racing bicycles. Gitanes were highly-regarded when I started racing in 1984, having carried Hinault, Fignon and Lemond to many Grand Tour and Monument victories, although they were few and far between where I lived. Whether the name on the down tube matched the name on the factory is a whole ‘nother story…

As for the relative merits of various French brands, others here have forgotten more than I will ever know, but the those mentioned endured for decades and each will have had better and worse models than each other over the years.

My main point is far more generic - just that I believe alignment, adjustment, wheels and tyres are usually much more important than frame characteristics in how most bicycles ride and feel.

smd4

That's awesome. Triathlon bikes were built to steer dead-straight. Triathletes weren't often cyclists first and foremost, and didn't want (or need) to focus on their bike-handling skills. So the geometry of those early triathlon bikes like the Ironman did not have the quick handling of the racier bikes that were coming out of Italy. I'm guessing there weren't too many Cinellis on the line in Kona BITD.

AdventureManCO 

****All hands on deck! The revered PX-10 has been slighted! Man your battlestations! ****

Hahahaha I love this! Always fun to hear the opines of one against the wind. It's funny, since I have a PX-10, a TdF (same frame as a Super Corsa if I'm not mistaken), and even an Ironman! This should be fun...

I think the Gitane Super Corsa and Tour de France were at the top of the heap Gitane-wise, so you have a higher end bike. I think the main difference in those two were the component groups - I think the Service Course was all Campy, and the TdF was, sadly, mostly Simplex? Or wait..was it 'sadly, mostly Campagnolo?'

I have heard great things about these Gitanes, and I've only taken mine on a quick spin and even then it was sketchy ride, but the ride was good enough to make me want to hold onto it and really build it up fully.

I also have a PX-10 and it is one of the better riding old bikes that I've had, so no it didn't feel like a buick or caddy or anything like that - that comparison gets saved for the UO-8 varieties (which in context, is not a dig actually). Wasn't the PX-10 considered a racing frame because, well, legitimately it was a Tour de France racing frame? Like back in the 60s? Here, I found this little quote:

"This is one of the classic racing bikes of the 1960s and 1970s, made from high-quality Reynolds 531 steel tubing. The Belgian rider, Eddy Merckx began his professional career astride a PX-10 for the BP Peugeot team in the mid-1960s. Sadly, British racer Tommy Simpson died while ascending Mount Ventoux on one in the 1967 Tour de France, in what became cycling’s first doping scandal. Furthermore, Bernard Thevenet won the 1975 and 1977 Tours de France on PX-10s."

From https://www.lanemotormuseum.org/coll...cing-bike-1974

So there ya go. It was considered one because it was one

No qualms with my PX-10, but very interested to try the Gitane, as you are not the first person that has praise their riding capabilities, even comparing to the PX-10 no less. Now as far as the comment about rocking and beating folks...who is saying that? lol that seems a little out of place, considered most pictures I've seen of L'Eroica are just folks walking their bikes up hills and stuff, seems more like an enjoyable chill even than like a hardcore triathlon or anything.

As far as the Ironman goes, I'm with you - mine is a fantastic bike. However, I have it setup FAR different than any of my other ones, with more modern components, sort of a mix of new and old. It makes comparisons difficult. But on its own, judged by itself...yes, wow.

Now...if you really want to compare a bike to the Titanic, I can think of a far better one than a PX-10 (reference: #174)

jet sanchEz

I've owned 16 Colnagos over the years and enjoyed them all and they ride well enough for me.

The two reasons I keep buying them is because of the mystique that surrounds them and, perhaps most importantly, they retain their value.

I have never lost money on a colnago and in fact, now that I think about it, the profits from the Colnagos that I have sold off over the years have more than covered the C50 and the two Masters that I still own and ride.

3alarmer 

...that's a feature, not a bug.

3alarmer 

...ok.