georges1

Well there is a big difference in quality between a basic Columbus SL (a mid range quality tube at best) Paramount and a triple butted Tange Prestige or quad butted I s h i t t a w a 3Rensho, Konno made bikes were crafted beautifully and were unique.

smd4

HA! You still don't get it! Mid-range quality. LOL!

There's nothing about those frames worth $2,500.

cudak888 

There's nothing about any frame worth $2,500.*

FIFY.

-Kurt

*if you break it down into what it cost of tubes and an acceptable rate of labor to build a frame. Any extra time that goes into filing lugs or prep that doesn't affect the structural integrity could be said to be a completely frivolous waste of time. But we're humans, we like artistry, and some of us are willing to pay a lot for what we perceive as something of artistic merit.

smd4

I'm all about artistry. I'm actually an artist, in fact. But I don't see anything in that frame that elevates it above any other nice steel lugged frame. So I agree with your statement at the beginning of the quote above.

tendency

Well, if someone is willing to pay $2500 for an excellent condition 3Rensho frame, then it's worth $2500, no sense arguing with basic economics.

Hondo6

One could say exactly the same about a Colnago/Tommasini/De Rosa/(whatever Italian frame maker you want to name) made out of SLX SL tubing. And they'd be both equally right - and equally wrong.

As @tendency noted above, the value is something is set by what someone is willing to pay for it. If someone is willing to pay $2500 for a particular frameset, then that's what it's worth. It doesn't matter if you would pay that for it or not.

On an objective scale, the $2500 3Rensho might even be a better buy than an Italian frame from the same era selling for the same amount. The lug work would likely be better finished on a high-end frame built by one of 3Rensho's master builders. Plus, Tange Prestige or Ish*wata 17 or 19 was equal to the best Columbus or Reynolds steel of its day.

Yes, Italy has a long history of building good bike frames (along with some that might leave you scratching your head - or thinking "Friday afternoon deadline"). But Italy is hardly the only place in the world where hand-built, well-crafted steel frames were ever built. Neither skill nor craftsmanship obeys national boundaries.

Andy_K 

Two things can both be true.

1. There's nothing about any frame worth $2,500.
2. Some people are willing to pay $2,500 for a 3Rensho frame.

Here's an explanation of why that is true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

I'd offer the additional comment that "worth" in the first statement is referring to objective, intrinsic value, while the "worth" implicit in the second statement is referring to objective desire for an object, mostly independent of logical reasoning.

styggno1

Five years ago I paid 1140 USD for this frame - including shipment from the US to Sweden and import taxes. If it would have cost me 3000 today I would still do it. Am I faster, stronger, more comfortable or any other ride quality feeling or result on it over my locally produced crudely cobbled together 200 dollar Monark Super Continental frame? Probably not. Still I find the 3Rensho more priceworthy. It is just beautiful and skillfully made. A thing not to be taken lightly upon.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. To me it is beautiful. To someone else not. What is it worth? What I am willing to pay for it.

georges1

gorgeous bike

1simplexnut

merziac

An absolute freakin bargain, worth every damn cent.

bikingshearer 

I would bet a fair amount of money that repechage had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he posted that. And considering how many bikes has has had and still has, I rather doubt he sees them as "consumables."

gaucho777 

Did those chain stays start off as fork blades?

embankmentlb

Beautiful bike! Perfect!

cudak888 

Doubt it. Anyone capable of curving chainstays and a seat tube like that will be able to do the same to chainstays.

-Kurt

AdventureManCO 

I can get behind this.

AdventureManCO 

I don't know how I missed this, but yes. I got you fam.

Portlandjim

If one really wants to make a faithful reproduction of a rare bike, the work involved to make the frame is more than most original bikes are would be worth. The frame shown in the OP seems to be just a repainted/decaled frame from some other builder. And not a great frame in any case.

How about repairs on expensive rare old frames? A new top and down tube to repair a crashed frame for example. Is this ethically acceptable call the result original? Who is the final expert to authenticate originality? Vintage bicycles are not valued in the same universe as old cars for instance. There are some very extensively repaired Bugatti type 35B that qualify as show winners for example. Jim Merz

cudak888 

Old cars have more tells that can betray replacement sheet metal - or in the case of many high-dollar Mopars these days, outright VIN forgeries. Top tube and downtube replacements, less so - unless, of course, one peers down the headtube or seattube to see the holes cut into them from the die grinding required to clean the miter. I'm not really sure how many people can currently pick up on this. I know this community has come a lot further than we were 20 years ago with spotting frame damage (to the point that bent forks are now a meme).

One could argue that the first replaced part that's not even integral to a bike constitutes non-originality - perhaps the question shouldn't be about whether something's original or not, but whether the restored item gives us the same warm fuzzies as the original.

I'll still give the creator of the FakeRensho a pass though. They ensured nobody could pass it off as the real thing and scratched their itch to have it. Given that it's being passed on, maybe he's been lucky enough to pick up the real deal.

You are making me think of a certain Type 22, even though "it will not be restored." I'm sure you know which one.

-Kurt

mikestr

Perhaps this replica could be viewed as a conceptual piece, a commentary on the entire idea of collecting and value. If you think about it, most high-end bikes are themselves are sort of riffs on actual race bikes, which often aren't as pretty as they are tools for winning and that's it. A San Rensho or a Colnago Master is really a piece of artwork inspired by a tool. The Centurion can't pass for a San Rensho because it looks too functional. That's kind of funny.

Catnap 

For those looking for an actual 3Rensho replica, Shinichi Konno of Cherubim cycles has made some. He is the nephew of Yoshi Konno, founder of 3Rensho. He did a limited run of them a few years ago and I think still makes them on a one-off basis. He uses the original Modeulo lugs designed by Yoshi and the famous 3Rensho “Superend” dropouts, sourced from his family’s private stash.

there’s one in brand new condition, 53cm on Yahoo JP auctions for around $2700:
https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/...en&rc=yaucc_sp

it’s a pretty good deal for someone who wants an example of one of the finest models of road bike 3Rensho made, but also designed to be compatible with a modern group. I’d buy it myself except I have the identical bike already, as an original (not a replica).

I made my own 3Rensho “tribute” a few years ago using the same Modeulo lug set that I collected up. Of course that was just for myself and doesn’t purport to be a Rensho or even a replica - https://djcatnap.com/lucky-penny-my-...te-fixed-gear/

I’ve also heard that Yamaguchi has made some 3Rensho replicas over the years. I’m not sure what his policy is on them, but as he also built for them back in the day, I’d say he’s well qualified to make a replica.

other than Konno or Yamaguchi, I’d be suspect of anyone else making a 3Rensho replica… ok, Makino could also make a legit replica but I’ve never seen him do so.