eldercycling

Hi All. This is my first post in one of the legitimate threads so be gentle with me. I have gotten obsessed with fixing older road bikes, and Motobecanes in particular. The obsession with Motobecanes is purely arbitrary: a few months back i got an old Mirage for free that was in rough shape and fixed it up. It is now my daily rider and I love it! One thing I did with it, that I am curious to hear what people think about, is I replaced the old cottered cranks and spindle with a modern GxP style bottom bracket and SRAM crankset. The bottom bracket I got from a company that specifically makes a modern bottom bracket for old French bikes that have Swiss threads (a subtle and very consequential little fact that caused a few rounds of trial and error and seemed to be unknown to even professional mechanics).

My question is: is it considered in poor taste to put modern parts on an old bike? The question is one that I am really pondering over because I made the (perhaps very bad) decision to buy a few more Motobecane frames that are in very good shape, and they were not that expensive. This time they are the Super Mirage model and just the framesets so I will have to build them up and the question before me is: do I try my best to find old parts that are likely original to the bike, or make something that is bit of a franken-bike with new parts? I am pretty familiar with the parts that were used on these bikes as I have already restored two Mirages, my daily rider and another that I got cheap off craigs list that only needed TLC. So it would be a lot of suntour deraileurs and friction shifters with weinnam center pull brake calipers. I also really like the idea of making some very pretty and ridable bikes but that have new parts.

Ultimately I will sell the completed bikes and need to make my money back but I am not interested in making much of a profit if any. I really just sell the bikes I work on to get more that need work, and I really like the thought of making an old bike that other people have given up on a second life and more miles underneath it.

Thanks,

T

iab

No.

Good luck. Not the best business.

davester

Getting your money back is highly unlikely to happen, especially when dealing with low to middle end French bikes. Nothing wrong with doing whatever you want with these bikes since they are not priceless heirlooms, but this is not a money-making or even break-even type of exercise.The consumables (tires, tubes, cables, brake pads, etc),cost alone is what will typically kill the economics of this.

Classtime 

Ya. Agreed. If you have a Co-op nearby and can get parts super cheap, it would be fun to build those bikes and give them to friends. Maybe take the parts off your Mirage and build the Super Mirage for yourself.

Congrats dealing with the Swiss BB. The French sized steerer is another quirk.

albrt 

I mostly agree with what others have said so far. If you're trying to make a bike rideable rather than collectable, then use what works and is available cheap. Co-ops are great for this if you can find one near you.

I would argue that some older parts are more robust and adaptable than newer parts, especially old friction shift derailleurs and levers compared to finicky newer indexed systems. But use what you like, or what your customers like.

repechage

A tax loss business model.

curbtender

A lot of us run down that road. Those that keep it a hobby seem to do better.

Andy_K 

I once had the French threaded bottom bracket on a Motobecane unthread itself while I was out on a ride. Luckily, there was a bike shop nearby with an owner/mechanic who looked old enough to be comfortable with this kind of thing. He scared me a little bit when he pulled out an air wrench to remove the cup that didn't unthread itself. He scared me a lot when I had trouble convincing him that such a thing as French threading existed. Happily I was able to convince him, and even better, he didn't use the air wrench to put it back together.

Poor taste? That's very subjective. Was it poor taste when I did this to a 1972 Grand Record?



Mon dieu! C'est une hérésie!

What about when I did this to a 1975 Grand Jubilé?



Ce que j'ai fait, je l'ai fait.

I completely agree with what others have said about this being a money losing venture, though. I would really love to find people who would be willing to buy bikes like these for what it costs me to build them. I'd be building one every month. Sadly, it's not in the cards. I suspect the same thing is true with resto-mod cars. Those give you the illusion that there's money to be made because you see people selling tricked out muscle cars for more than $50,000. But read any sale ad and you'll find the seller admitting that they spent almost twice what they're asking to get it like that.

I've got around $1500 in that Grand Record, this despite having bought the frame for $30. The Grand Jubilé? Well, I don't think my wife has ever looked at this forum, but some things are better left undisclosed, just in case. What could I sell them for? I don't know. I haven't tried. I can't imagine it would be even close to half what I've spent on them. Anyone with money burning a hole in their pocket is welcome to prove me wrong.

1989Pre 

I should think that a hi-ten Mirage would sell a lot faster, the lighter it is. The Sram GXP bottom bracket and aluminum crank is a good start.

1989Pre 

I had just picked my Manufrance up from the local co-op service department, where, for some reason, they had taken the b.b. apart and "re-installed" it. I made it about ten miles before I felt something weird. My fixed cup had un-screwed itself ten miles from home. I was somehow able to get it tight enough (every 4 miles) to get me back, but when I asked the "mechanic" about this, he told me French bikes are prone to this and it is the result of "procession". Events like this keep me honest, compelling me to do more-and-more of my own work. You have to lean into it when you install your French fixed cup. (I like what you did with the Grand Jub. Maybe especially the audax shifters).

dedhed

precession or it is just a parade.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_(mechanical)

dedhed

Lots of poor taste here.


​​​​​​https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...i-s-ergos.html

BTinNYC 

I use BBs from ROI regularly to put modern cranksets on old Swiss or French threaded bikes. It's an upgrade, and I say rock on!

The "get my money back" part, I don't do regularly.

Peugeot UO-8, getting the business.

RustyJames 

Freshly painted and hanging up inside your home. You and I are kindred spirits.

USAZorro

Updating an older bike - especially one that either is not exactly an heirloom, or which has paint that is poor enough to require a repaint (My own personal criteria. Not necessarily others') is one of the fun things about the hobby. Of course, there's always the question of what to do with it once it's done. I have not had success in making this a financially self-sustaining hobby. There are a few who have been able to, but they are VERY selective about their purchases, and I believe they generate the surplus by "parting out" bikes, much more so than "flipping". Let's say you do find a $20.00 bike, but it needs tubes, tires, cable, a new chain, brake pads and servicing. Using VERY conservative prices, replacing with new items - $5.00 for a tube, $18.00 for a tire, $9.00 for cables and housing, $12.00 for a chain and $15.00 for brake pads, you'd be putting $84 into this bike to sell it as "ready to ride" (people who can do their own work are more likely to be your competition than your clients). You would need to sell the bike for $104 to break even after investing 3+ hours of time. If you're lucky, you can find a $50.00 bike that has transplantable items, so you'd need to clear $70.00 after spending 4-5+ hours... then you'd have a frame and derelict parts to figure out what to do with.

The "hitch" is that not all parts can just come off one bike and go onto another. You have to keep in mind differences like wheel size, tire clearance, threading, etc.

You can do the math. You may have the knowledge to negotiate the interchangability pitfalls, so I'll just leave it here.

Now if you're going through the exercise to gain knowledge or end up with a fun riding option, or create a gift for a friend or family member (something where expense is a consideration, but not the only one), rehabbing, restoring, or re-imagining old bicycles can be quite satisfying and rewarding (from the standpoint of being able to get to the end and achieving something) past-time. Granted, it's not for everyone, and for those who engage in it, it isn't necessarily and exclusive one. But many of us here enjoy it. That's a substantial part of why we are here.

JohnDThompson 

Yes, precessional loosening is an issue with French and Italian thread bottom brackets. That's why English and Swiss thread bottom brackets use a left-hand thread (counter-clockwise to tighten) on the drive side. It helps to use professional quality tools (e.g. Campagnolo #793/A, VAR #30, Hozan C-358) when installing French or Italian thread fixed cups, and some thread adhesive on the threads.

The Golden Boy 

How to end up with a million dollars in the bicycle business:

Start out with 7 million dollars.

Murray Missile 

The only bikes I ever came out ahead on based on material cost when selling were box store bikes because I had people giving them to me literally by the truck load. I could pick through and salvage enough good parts to make one or two functional, safe and decent looking bikes out of the pile with minimal cash output and still sell them cheap. As far as "good" bikes, I only came out ahead a handful of times and when you average it out over all the "good" bikes sold I'm still WAY in the hole. I haven't even factored in my time, it would just depress me further. I haven't flipped a bike in about 3 years now for several reasons and I also no longer work on other people's bikes unless it's someone I know really well. Liability is one reason, the market being in the toilet is another and primarily because working on flip bikes and other people's bikes instead of my own along with a nasty predisposition toward procrastination are a lot of the reason I'm sitting on a garage full of unfinished projects. Right now I need to unload some bikes to make room for the better stuff but I'm hampered by a weak market, most of my bikes are tall frames and what I no longer want is what nobody else wants either so they aren't going away anytime soon. I even tried giving a pair of early 70's Gitane mixte project bikes away and didn't get any takers!

So, modify to your heart's content but plan on keeping them long after the thrill is gone.

Andy_K 

I don't trust my torque wrench or my bottom brackets (mostly modern cartridge) enough to really lean on it, so I've had the precession unthreading experience with three out of my four French bikes. My usual routine is, I build the bike, I ride it, the bottom bracket comes undone, I put it back together with a bit of blue Loctite. I think with my most recent build I remembered to do the Loctite the first time. For some reason this hasn't happened to me with any of my Italian bikes. I guess some difference in the thread height or something makes it just a little bit tighter.

Re: the Grand Jubilé...giving credit where credit is due, @gugie did the quality torchwork, and Groody Bros powder coated it. I was more of a curator. The shifters are Campagnolo 10-speed bar ends mated to the brake levers with a prototype widget from Gevenalle. The looks are an acquired taste, but the functionality is perfect for a randonneur-style bike.

AdventureManCO 

Tell me about it! Took two bikes to the co-op about a week and a half ago, and I've got at least 3 in the sales thread w/ no takers. I might just list them locally for stupid low money so I can at least buy some brake cables or something


To the OP - now is a solid time to either be really picky about spending money on old bikes, or be un-picky about super ultra cheap or free bikes, with the full expectation that you are probably going to be giving them away when you are done with them. Good luck!

Murray Missile 

I don't even have a co-op within 100 miles of me to take any to!

AdventureManCO 

Dang that sucks. Because one man's gold is another man's garbage. Let's face it, most of these old things are the 'CRT monitor' of the bicycling world, and the only saving grace we have is that as long as they are metal, they have an sliver of scrap value, so it will be harder for agencies to charge us to take them off our hands. As an analog individual living in an increasingly digital and battery-operated world, my view is in the far, far, far minority. But I will exist with contentment in my happy little ancient cluttered corner of the world. And hopefully soon a little less cluttered!

albrt 

I volunteer at a co-op that makes most of its money by rehabbing and selling donated bikes. The only reason it makes money is because the bikes and most of the parts are free (donated) and the labor is free (volunteers with no paid staff).

Fortunately we were able to set aside some reserves during the Covid bike boom because with the used bike market the way it is lately, we're having a hard time making money selling stuff we got free.

mpetry912 

I have sold TWO bikes for significant upside gain: First, the "positive net worth" Cinelli, which I bought on a tip from Spence Wolf in 1987, paid $500 bucks for it, over the years I sold the Mafac Top 63 brakes off this bike for $1500 to a buyer in Japan. I rode this bike for 20 years ! Finally in 2007 a buyer "just had to have a Spence Wolf Cinelli" and he offered me $2800 so I let it go.

And in 1998 I bought a "Wizard" bike for $400, complete bike, and took it apart, sent the frame to Brian Baylis for paint, and equipped it with a resto-mod build, again I rode that bike for about 20 years, and in 2019 sold the frame only for 3500 bucks !

Having said all that - trading vintage bikes is not a money making propositioin, however it is possible to come out ahead if you BUY QUALITY and buy it "right", hold it for a significant period, and when you get a good offer, take it.

/markp

Kabuki12

Mark , you did ok . The thing is , you are talking about bikes that most don’t come across often , a Cinelli and a Wizard? Plus you held onto them for 20 years or so . What the op is trying to do in today’s market is not wise if you seek profit. I don’t think that when you bought the bikes you mentioned , you intended to make money. The only bike I made money on was a Centurion Elite RS that I bought NOS for $100 , put tires on it and minor tune , rode for two years and sold for $300. I guess I made about $100 not counting my time. I sold a Medici Pro Strada last year that was in exceptional condition with Campagnolo SR components for $740 . I paid $330 for it but upgraded the bike a lot with panto bar and stem , saddle , tires, and some elbow grease . I may have broken even! Now is not the time for profit …..a great time for the enthusiasts.