Tern Link D8 - it’s not got the range!
#1
iti biking
Thread Starter
Tern Link D8 - it’s not got the range!
Our Tern Link D8 isn’t quite cutting it on the hills around here. I’m considering replacing the 52t chainset with something a bit smaller which will involve new cranks, but if I’m going down that route I could just install a double chainset for similar money and improve the gear range. However, I’ll need to grab a front derailleur and shifter (not expensive) and order a LitePro braze-on adaptor. The unknown here is does the Neos rear derailleur have the capacity to handle working with a smaller inner front ring? If not, then I need to source a cheap Shimano road rear derailleur and the Tern adaptor for a gear hanger. Various blogs out there indicate that it’s doable and it’s well within my skill set.
The other option is installing a Sturmey Archer dual drive hub, but I’m not sure firstly if there’s enough width between the rear dropouts? Has anyone tried this before on a nominally 130mm wide folder? Cost wise I reckon it’ll be about the same for parts as messing around with new front and rear derailleur plus extra labour costs for rebuilding a wheel (unless I give that a go).
Any recommendations out there around either route? Any pros and cons to consider before I pull the trigger on buying parts?
The other option is installing a Sturmey Archer dual drive hub, but I’m not sure firstly if there’s enough width between the rear dropouts? Has anyone tried this before on a nominally 130mm wide folder? Cost wise I reckon it’ll be about the same for parts as messing around with new front and rear derailleur plus extra labour costs for rebuilding a wheel (unless I give that a go).
Any recommendations out there around either route? Any pros and cons to consider before I pull the trigger on buying parts?
#2
Stardust
Our Tern Link D8 isn’t quite cutting it on the hills around here. I’m considering replacing the 52t chainset with something a bit smaller which will involve new cranks, but if I’m going down that route I could just install a double chainset for similar money and improve the gear range. However, I’ll need to grab a front derailleur and shifter (not expensive) and order a LitePro braze-on adaptor. The unknown here is does the Neos rear derailleur have the capacity to handle working with a smaller inner front ring? If not, then I need to source a cheap Shimano road rear derailleur and the Tern adaptor for a gear hanger. Various blogs out there indicate that it’s doable and it’s well within my skill set.
The other option is installing a Sturmey Archer dual drive hub, but I’m not sure firstly if there’s enough width between the rear dropouts? Has anyone tried this before on a nominally 130mm wide folder? Cost wise I reckon it’ll be about the same for parts as messing around with new front and rear derailleur plus extra labour costs for rebuilding a wheel (unless I give that a go).
Any recommendations out there around either route? Any pros and cons to consider before I pull the trigger on buying parts?
The other option is installing a Sturmey Archer dual drive hub, but I’m not sure firstly if there’s enough width between the rear dropouts? Has anyone tried this before on a nominally 130mm wide folder? Cost wise I reckon it’ll be about the same for parts as messing around with new front and rear derailleur plus extra labour costs for rebuilding a wheel (unless I give that a go).
Any recommendations out there around either route? Any pros and cons to consider before I pull the trigger on buying parts?
i would choose go on dual chainring route.
#3
Senior Member
I've never liked the proprietary Neos RD. I also don't know if an internally geared hub would work as well for you: perhaps lower gearing, but at the expense of increased weight and less efficiency in an IGH. I'd stay with a traditional drivetrain if at all possible.
I'm in favor of installing the Tern hanger adapter and then replacing the Neos RD with whatever RD and cluster you want, and seeing if you can get the gearing you want that way.
If that doesn't work, is the chainring replaceable or is it integrated into the spider? A slightly smaller chainring would get you closer to where you need to be without changing things too drastically in relation to the Neos. A more drastic chainring reduction would probably not make the Neos happy.
I'm in favor of installing the Tern hanger adapter and then replacing the Neos RD with whatever RD and cluster you want, and seeing if you can get the gearing you want that way.
If that doesn't work, is the chainring replaceable or is it integrated into the spider? A slightly smaller chainring would get you closer to where you need to be without changing things too drastically in relation to the Neos. A more drastic chainring reduction would probably not make the Neos happy.
#4
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Dual drive uses 135mm dropout. I don't think it's possible to reduce the width. I think I read somewhere that the axle threads are 10.5mm diameter, so you probably won't be able to find thinner nuts or cones.
Doesn't look like Tern uses normal hangers?
https://www.ternbicycles.com/us/gear...illeur-adapter
Dahon uses somewhat 'standard' hangers that can be bought cheaply with the Marwi Union brand for $3-5.
MARWI | Gear hangers - Dahon
Some people on the forum use 11-36T 10 speed cassette with the Shimano Zee RD and a single chainring. That would give you 327% range.
On my Dahon Vigor, I use 12-34T 10 speed cassette (custom mixed cogs myself) with 24/44T double chainring for 519% range. The RD is Shimano 4700 GS which has the widest chain wrap capacity of all the Shimano GS road RDs.
Front derailleur used to be the 4700 FD, but it broke down and I recently replaced with with a SRAM Rival YAW FD, which works much better, but still needs some bending of the outer cage to get it a little bit wider, depending on how you're setting this all up. I simply used my old Shimano FD shifter, because the way I set it up, I didn't need trim position, so I simply needed a trigger with 2 positions. The 4700 trigger uses a long pull, so I had a lot of cable slack to work with. There was another thread somewhere discussing this.
https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-b...eat-tubes.html
You'll find photos in the thread above of how I setup my FD adapter. I used the LitePro P clamp (41mm diameter) but attached my own 3D printed steel adapter because the adapter that came with the LitePro P was too far rearward and angled a bit too far backward for me.
Doesn't look like Tern uses normal hangers?
https://www.ternbicycles.com/us/gear...illeur-adapter
Dahon uses somewhat 'standard' hangers that can be bought cheaply with the Marwi Union brand for $3-5.
MARWI | Gear hangers - Dahon
Some people on the forum use 11-36T 10 speed cassette with the Shimano Zee RD and a single chainring. That would give you 327% range.
On my Dahon Vigor, I use 12-34T 10 speed cassette (custom mixed cogs myself) with 24/44T double chainring for 519% range. The RD is Shimano 4700 GS which has the widest chain wrap capacity of all the Shimano GS road RDs.
Front derailleur used to be the 4700 FD, but it broke down and I recently replaced with with a SRAM Rival YAW FD, which works much better, but still needs some bending of the outer cage to get it a little bit wider, depending on how you're setting this all up. I simply used my old Shimano FD shifter, because the way I set it up, I didn't need trim position, so I simply needed a trigger with 2 positions. The 4700 trigger uses a long pull, so I had a lot of cable slack to work with. There was another thread somewhere discussing this.
https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-b...eat-tubes.html
You'll find photos in the thread above of how I setup my FD adapter. I used the LitePro P clamp (41mm diameter) but attached my own 3D printed steel adapter because the adapter that came with the LitePro P was too far rearward and angled a bit too far backward for me.
#5
iti biking
Thread Starter
Annoyingly, the chainring is fixed to the crankset so I can’t simply swap it out for something smaller than what looks like a 52t ring. If I go to the trouble and expense of a new single chainset and cranks to say install a 46t or lower ring, I feel that I might as well go the whole hog and install a double chainset instead - as long as I can get the FD to behave on a LitePro adaptor.
As for the rear, getting hold of the Tern adaptor for non-Neos derailleurs seems to be as costly as a Shimano Claris or Sora RD. I’m not bothered with any more than an 8-speed rear as the range will be about the same (the current block is 12-32) just with closer gaps. If a Neos RD can handle the complication of the extra slack created by the inner chainring, that’ll be great as that’s one less complication/cost to manage.
As for the rear, getting hold of the Tern adaptor for non-Neos derailleurs seems to be as costly as a Shimano Claris or Sora RD. I’m not bothered with any more than an 8-speed rear as the range will be about the same (the current block is 12-32) just with closer gaps. If a Neos RD can handle the complication of the extra slack created by the inner chainring, that’ll be great as that’s one less complication/cost to manage.
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I don't think the Neos derailleur will give you anymore chain wrap capacity. But you can give it a test to measure the capacity. If the chain is removable, take it off, then grab a new chain and wrap it through the cassette/chainring/RD. Shift to the largest cog. Pull the chain as short as it will go just before the RD cage is fully extended/rotated, and use a little hook to hold the chain in place. Count or mark the length. Shift to the smallest cog. Release more chain length until the jockey/pulley wheels run out of capacity. Count the new chain length. The difference will be the chain wrap capacity of the RD.
If you have a 12-32 cassette and a double chainring with a 16T jump, then you need an RD with a capacity of (32-12) + 16 = 36 links. However, if you lengthen the chain a little bit and allow the cage to drag on the small small combination, you might be able to get away with a capacity of 33-34 links.
My 12-34T cassette and 24/44T chainrings has a capacity of 42. The 4700-GS has a capacity of 41, but in reality from what I remember, I think I was able to fit all 42 teeth into it, but I could be remembering wrong. Originally I had a 26/46T double. When I switched to 24/44T, I kept the same chain length in case I decide to switch back to the larger chainrings in the future, so the 2 smallest small-small combo will drag on the cage, which is fine since I don't need to use those gears.
If you have a 12-32 cassette and a double chainring with a 16T jump, then you need an RD with a capacity of (32-12) + 16 = 36 links. However, if you lengthen the chain a little bit and allow the cage to drag on the small small combination, you might be able to get away with a capacity of 33-34 links.
My 12-34T cassette and 24/44T chainrings has a capacity of 42. The 4700-GS has a capacity of 41, but in reality from what I remember, I think I was able to fit all 42 teeth into it, but I could be remembering wrong. Originally I had a 26/46T double. When I switched to 24/44T, I kept the same chain length in case I decide to switch back to the larger chainrings in the future, so the 2 smallest small-small combo will drag on the cage, which is fine since I don't need to use those gears.
#7
Stardust
I don't think the Neos derailleur will give you anymore chain wrap capacity. But you can give it a test to measure the capacity. If the chain is removable, take it off, then grab a new chain and wrap it through the cassette/chainring/RD. Shift to the largest cog. Pull the chain as short as it will go just before the RD cage is fully extended/rotated, and use a little hook to hold the chain in place. Count or mark the length. Shift to the smallest cog. Release more chain length until the jockey/pulley wheels run out of capacity. Count the new chain length. The difference will be the chain wrap capacity of the RD.
If you have a 12-32 cassette and a double chainring with a 16T jump, then you need an RD with a capacity of (32-12) + 16 = 36 links. However, if you lengthen the chain a little bit and allow the cage to drag on the small small combination, you might be able to get away with a capacity of 33-34 links.
My 12-34T cassette and 24/44T chainrings has a capacity of 42. The 4700-GS has a capacity of 41, but in reality from what I remember, I think I was able to fit all 42 teeth into it, but I could be remembering wrong. Originally I had a 26/46T double. When I switched to 24/44T, I kept the same chain length in case I decide to switch back to the larger chainrings in the future, so the 2 smallest small-small combo will drag on the cage, which is fine since I don't need to use those gears.
If you have a 12-32 cassette and a double chainring with a 16T jump, then you need an RD with a capacity of (32-12) + 16 = 36 links. However, if you lengthen the chain a little bit and allow the cage to drag on the small small combination, you might be able to get away with a capacity of 33-34 links.
My 12-34T cassette and 24/44T chainrings has a capacity of 42. The 4700-GS has a capacity of 41, but in reality from what I remember, I think I was able to fit all 42 teeth into it, but I could be remembering wrong. Originally I had a 26/46T double. When I switched to 24/44T, I kept the same chain length in case I decide to switch back to the larger chainrings in the future, so the 2 smallest small-small combo will drag on the cage, which is fine since I don't need to use those gears.
christ! why on earth you need 34/24 gear combination on a folder?
#9
iti biking
Thread Starter
I’ve had a bit of a browse about and found the Microshift Advent 1x9 speed system which appears cheap, simple and able to give me a reasonable range with a 11-42 cassette and a medium cage RD.
I know it’ll be closer to the ground than the Neos RD but still smaller than the usual long cage RDs that aren’t appropriate for 20” wheeled folders. Annoyingly I can’t find the centre to centre measurement for them anywhere to check for certain if it’ll work, so I wondered if anyone could have a look at this RD and see if it’ll do the job?
I know it’ll be closer to the ground than the Neos RD but still smaller than the usual long cage RDs that aren’t appropriate for 20” wheeled folders. Annoyingly I can’t find the centre to centre measurement for them anywhere to check for certain if it’ll work, so I wondered if anyone could have a look at this RD and see if it’ll do the job?
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I doubt that anyone on this forum would know. You could email the manufacture to ask for the cage length.
With 11-42t you still only get 382% range. A double chainring could get you over 500% depending on how you set it up.
For example 52/34 and 11-34 gives you 472% if you're willing to setup an 18t double jump. Or 487% if you use a 33t inner chainring 110bcd. 130bcd minimum is 38t. 74bcd minimum is 24t.
With 11-42t you still only get 382% range. A double chainring could get you over 500% depending on how you set it up.
For example 52/34 and 11-34 gives you 472% if you're willing to setup an 18t double jump. Or 487% if you use a 33t inner chainring 110bcd. 130bcd minimum is 38t. 74bcd minimum is 24t.
#11
iti biking
Thread Starter
As an update for anyone else considering changing gearing, I’ve swapped the original 52t chainset for a 44t set. So far so good as it’s handling climbing the local hills comfortably on the standard 12-32t cassette, but I haven’t yet tried it with anything more loaded than a rack top bag on the rear.
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#12
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Look at recumbent trike gear set ups. Same range of wheels and weights if you are toting stuff
With mine I can climb phone poles, and work out on parking lot ramps if I need to test a set up.
But then I can come to a complete stop and sit if I need a break.
The long cage derailiers do hang low, and three wheels make tracking through the rough stuff a challenge
but I haven't had any problems. The vulnerability in folding is an issue , but a RD hanger straightness check to me is part of regular maint.
The Dual speed and Sturmey archer set ups are easy, not too pricey at ~$170 and less a mess than a FD setup (? what ~$60 total?), though gear progression and overlapping ratios are an issue.
The convenience over greasy finger / heel shifting vs FD is personal, but at 1090gm the multi speed hub competes with the extra chainwheel/FD.
All of them add complexity and fiddle. I find the IGH take less setup time and are more foldable, but YMMV.
With mine I can climb phone poles, and work out on parking lot ramps if I need to test a set up.
But then I can come to a complete stop and sit if I need a break.
The long cage derailiers do hang low, and three wheels make tracking through the rough stuff a challenge
but I haven't had any problems. The vulnerability in folding is an issue , but a RD hanger straightness check to me is part of regular maint.
The Dual speed and Sturmey archer set ups are easy, not too pricey at ~$170 and less a mess than a FD setup (? what ~$60 total?), though gear progression and overlapping ratios are an issue.
The convenience over greasy finger / heel shifting vs FD is personal, but at 1090gm the multi speed hub competes with the extra chainwheel/FD.
All of them add complexity and fiddle. I find the IGH take less setup time and are more foldable, but YMMV.
Last edited by bikebikebike; 02-26-20 at 10:44 AM.
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#13
iti biking
Thread Starter
Well, following some trips away from home with the Tern Link D8 and an older Dahon Speed TR, it became apparent that the range on the Tern wasn’t cutting it for my partner, who wasn’t enamoured with the fit, weight or the appearance of the Dahon.
I toyed with retrofitting a dual drive, but the additional cost of wheel building combined with the weight wasn’t really selling it to me. As much as I enjoy the range of gears on the Dahon, the dual drive is another bit of kit to get knocked about and I’ve already had one scare of a bent pin when flying with it. Plus, the shifter options are a bit limited.
So, I bit the bullet and ordered a proper derailleur hanger from Tern and a Microshift Advent groupset with a 11-42t cassette, on the basis of enough MTB dads outfitting their kid’s 20” wheeled bikes with the same set up. When Marin started selling kids bikes with the same setup, albeit using the Microshift Acolyte groupset with one less gear, I reckoned the risk would be low.
Quite an easy install - Microshift’s instructions were pretty clear - and there’s enough clearance around the rear tyre (although I would be wary of trying a monster like the larger Schwabe Big Apple). Trigger shifts feel quite clear and precise and without significant lag.
Initial trial runs around the apartment block car park and its ramp seem to indicate that it’s comfy enough so far, so the next challenge will be the open road aka the cycle path that circles Auckland city centre, which is hilly enough...
I toyed with retrofitting a dual drive, but the additional cost of wheel building combined with the weight wasn’t really selling it to me. As much as I enjoy the range of gears on the Dahon, the dual drive is another bit of kit to get knocked about and I’ve already had one scare of a bent pin when flying with it. Plus, the shifter options are a bit limited.
So, I bit the bullet and ordered a proper derailleur hanger from Tern and a Microshift Advent groupset with a 11-42t cassette, on the basis of enough MTB dads outfitting their kid’s 20” wheeled bikes with the same set up. When Marin started selling kids bikes with the same setup, albeit using the Microshift Acolyte groupset with one less gear, I reckoned the risk would be low.
Quite an easy install - Microshift’s instructions were pretty clear - and there’s enough clearance around the rear tyre (although I would be wary of trying a monster like the larger Schwabe Big Apple). Trigger shifts feel quite clear and precise and without significant lag.
Initial trial runs around the apartment block car park and its ramp seem to indicate that it’s comfy enough so far, so the next challenge will be the open road aka the cycle path that circles Auckland city centre, which is hilly enough...
#14
Junior Member
Thanks for the update and let us know how you get on with the microshift system.
On one bike I went for a similar set-up, using Shimano XT. I was seduced by the marketing speak about perfect shifting but I can't really feel any difference to the cheaper Shimano systems.
It generally works well but the bottom of the RD gets close to the tyre and the ground. All good on the road, but it works as a mud scoop in puddles and adds a nice crunchy feeling to the chain as the mud/grit goes round.
On one bike I went for a similar set-up, using Shimano XT. I was seduced by the marketing speak about perfect shifting but I can't really feel any difference to the cheaper Shimano systems.
It generally works well but the bottom of the RD gets close to the tyre and the ground. All good on the road, but it works as a mud scoop in puddles and adds a nice crunchy feeling to the chain as the mud/grit goes round.
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I can't really feel any difference to the cheaper Shimano systems.
It generally works well but the bottom of the RD gets close to the tyre and the ground. All good on the road, but it works as a mud scoop in puddles and adds a nice crunchy feeling to the chain as the mud/grit goes round.
It generally works well but the bottom of the RD gets close to the tyre and the ground. All good on the road, but it works as a mud scoop in puddles and adds a nice crunchy feeling to the chain as the mud/grit goes round.
Wanna see low hanging , look at the 16"trikes with the setup. Idler looks like a training wheel with the long RD needed for a 30+ cog.
Foldies are an exercise in compromise.
Wheel building looks intimidating, but is not complicated , esp at the 20"level,
Still at the bike counter , I find myself often in line behind folks coming in to have a flat fixed.
Microshift stuff is pretty nice at their price point, good to hear it is working out. Also easier to find nowadays.
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#16
iti biking
Thread Starter
I guess I should probably provide an update on how it’s going with the regeared Tern. Since I’m awaiting a new shift pin for my Dahon, I’ve been solely riding around on the Tern for the last month or so, so I feel I can comment a bit more now.
In general, the Microshift Advent groupset shifts cleanly and solidly - it’s not a soft touch to shift, but shifting feels purposeful. Clearance is okay - I’m now running Schwalbe Big Apples and with them pumped up reasonably firmly I haven’t grounded out on bumps and kerbs. I would be wary of using the Advent setup on 406 wheels with skinny tyres but 451s should be more comfortable with that set up. I wouldn’t want to head hugely off-road on it, but on gravel tracks and rail trails it seems to collect as much road dirt as the Dahon did.
In terms of climbing, it’s able to handle both the short sharp and long dragging hills locally without needing to get out of the saddle. I can push it on the flat past the highest gear with some effort, but as the bike is set up quite upright with Soma Sparrow bars I doubt its intended user will be doing that often.
Had I not picked up the Dahon Speed TR soon after the Tern, I would be quite happy with another Link or similar 20” folder switched to Microshift Advent for my own use - although I think I would have kept a 52t chainring on it and picked up some drop bars, the Advent road brifters and a pair of Travel Agents for a more zippy journey.
The other change that surprised me was the ride after swapping tyres. I found the Tern quite leaden with the Schwalbe Duranos on it compared to the Big Apple-Marathon combo on the Dahon. Switching to Big Apples all round has made for a much more fun, lively ride.
In general, the Microshift Advent groupset shifts cleanly and solidly - it’s not a soft touch to shift, but shifting feels purposeful. Clearance is okay - I’m now running Schwalbe Big Apples and with them pumped up reasonably firmly I haven’t grounded out on bumps and kerbs. I would be wary of using the Advent setup on 406 wheels with skinny tyres but 451s should be more comfortable with that set up. I wouldn’t want to head hugely off-road on it, but on gravel tracks and rail trails it seems to collect as much road dirt as the Dahon did.
In terms of climbing, it’s able to handle both the short sharp and long dragging hills locally without needing to get out of the saddle. I can push it on the flat past the highest gear with some effort, but as the bike is set up quite upright with Soma Sparrow bars I doubt its intended user will be doing that often.
Had I not picked up the Dahon Speed TR soon after the Tern, I would be quite happy with another Link or similar 20” folder switched to Microshift Advent for my own use - although I think I would have kept a 52t chainring on it and picked up some drop bars, the Advent road brifters and a pair of Travel Agents for a more zippy journey.
The other change that surprised me was the ride after swapping tyres. I found the Tern quite leaden with the Schwalbe Duranos on it compared to the Big Apple-Marathon combo on the Dahon. Switching to Big Apples all round has made for a much more fun, lively ride.
Last edited by Reddleman; 10-02-21 at 01:54 AM.
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The other change that surprised me was the ride after swapping tyres. I found the Tern quite leaden with the Schwalbe Duranos on it compared to the Big Apple-Marathon combo on the Dahon. Switching to Big Apples all round has made for a much more fun, lively ride.[/QUOTE]
I chose the Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires as replacements on my Dahon Speed. I read they are really good at resisting punctures. One drawback is that this increases the weight and decreases flexibility of the tire.The puncture resistance is provided by increasing the thickness. This is true for runflat tires on automobiles (BMW). I wonder if its the same for bicycles?
I chose the Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires as replacements on my Dahon Speed. I read they are really good at resisting punctures. One drawback is that this increases the weight and decreases flexibility of the tire.The puncture resistance is provided by increasing the thickness. This is true for runflat tires on automobiles (BMW). I wonder if its the same for bicycles?
#19
iti biking
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I chose the Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires as replacements on my Dahon Speed. I read they are really good at resisting punctures. One drawback is that this increases the weight and decreases flexibility of the tire.The puncture resistance is provided by increasing the thickness. This is true for runflat tires on automobiles (BMW). I wonder if its the same for bicycles?
#21
iti biking
Thread Starter
Had I not picked up the Dahon Speed TR soon after the Tern, I would be quite happy with another Link or similar 20” folder switched to Microshift Advent for my own use - although I think I would have kept a 52t chainring on it and picked up some drop bars, the Advent road brifters and a pair of Travel Agents for a more zippy journey.
This time I stuck with the 52T chainring but put on an 11-46T cassette. No real clearance issues either this time, but it needs a 116 minimum link chain. More of a higher end, and still comfortable on the low end too. Currently running with flat bars, but I picked up a bar end shifter for a potential drop bar conversion touring-style in 2022…
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You can run the old altus 8 speed rear derailleur with alivio 9s shifter or sora 9 s.
if you fit a FD, you can run sora or alivio 2x
i run 53/39 with 9s 11-25 but is used to work with 11-32 on short cage.
you can run altus and sora short cage with 11-36.
i also run a 1x9 with 48x11-36 and a 1x9 with 32 11-34
if you fit a FD, you can run sora or alivio 2x
i run 53/39 with 9s 11-25 but is used to work with 11-32 on short cage.
you can run altus and sora short cage with 11-36.
i also run a 1x9 with 48x11-36 and a 1x9 with 32 11-34
Last edited by Fentuz; 12-18-21 at 04:58 AM.