100 test miles on '73 Paramount P13v2 repair so far....
10-06-23, 08:34 PM
#26
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Yeah, and this summer has been crazy. I had to find/move apartments, move out of Harvard, start the job, and fix a ton of overdue car problems myself, since this job requires a car. The job turned out to be waaay too much travel, which I found out in September, after having spent half the worknights in hotels far away from the expensive Arlington Heights apartment we've got now. What's the point?! So I just made a lateral move into a more locally based position at the same company, which is conveniently situated near the end of a 10 mile bike path that goes by my new apartment. So I may be able to bike commute and lose some of the weight I put on during the Ph.D. and broken leg saga of last year.
The whole thing has been a mess. Herse, Cooper, and Taylor are in storage in NH right now, along with the majority of my bike junkpile and a ton of SAAB car parts I need to sell or give away. I just did my first real ride in 2 months today!! Anddd found out I need a new back tire for my Trek. So, I'm still out of the game for another while - at least until I get the cars in good shape and the commuter bikes back on the road.
[ /thread_hijack ]
The whole thing has been a mess. Herse, Cooper, and Taylor are in storage in NH right now, along with the majority of my bike junkpile and a ton of SAAB car parts I need to sell or give away. I just did my first real ride in 2 months today!! Anddd found out I need a new back tire for my Trek. So, I'm still out of the game for another while - at least until I get the cars in good shape and the commuter bikes back on the road.
[ /thread_hijack ]
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10-07-23, 12:12 AM
#27
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10-07-23, 04:36 AM
#28
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88ss
Prior to 1971, all models of Paramount men's road bike shared the same geometry, build features, forks, and tubing lengths for specific frame sizes. Even though a P13 came equipped with tubular wheels in the 622mm size (aka 700c), the frame was sized to handle the larger 630mm (aka 27") clincher/wired on wheelsets. A drop bolt was utilized on the Campagnolo brake calipers in order to reach the tubular wheelset.
Sometime during 1971, the P13 began receiving the changes that you mention. Kurt started a thread on this transition 13 years ago. Initially, IIRC, he concluded the transition occurred sometime in late spring. However, we found examples from earlier in the year which incorporated the changes, including my early March 1971 P13.
I do hope this is helpful information. Of course, 700c clincher wheelsets pair nicely on P13s, and for riders who don't want to run tubulars, this is a great alternative. I have also squeezed 27 X 1&1/8 wheels on my P13.
Prior to 1971, all models of Paramount men's road bike shared the same geometry, build features, forks, and tubing lengths for specific frame sizes. Even though a P13 came equipped with tubular wheels in the 622mm size (aka 700c), the frame was sized to handle the larger 630mm (aka 27") clincher/wired on wheelsets. A drop bolt was utilized on the Campagnolo brake calipers in order to reach the tubular wheelset.
Sometime during 1971, the P13 began receiving the changes that you mention. Kurt started a thread on this transition 13 years ago. Initially, IIRC, he concluded the transition occurred sometime in late spring. However, we found examples from earlier in the year which incorporated the changes, including my early March 1971 P13.
I do hope this is helpful information. Of course, 700c clincher wheelsets pair nicely on P13s, and for riders who don't want to run tubulars, this is a great alternative. I have also squeezed 27 X 1&1/8 wheels on my P13.
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10-07-23, 04:44 PM
#29
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The distance between the center of the brake mount bolt and the center of the axles on this '73 Paramount is 14", on bikes made for 27" wheels I have measured it is 15", quite a difference. The junk-box calipers I have on this '73 bike are "Schwinn Approved" and originally off a '74 Sprint I scrapped out because it was too small for me, I have to put the shoes all the way up in the arm slots to get them to work with the 700c wheels now on the bike, so they would never work with 27" rims as there is no adjustment left. And I must say these Schwinn-approved side-pulls give little braking power and I will be glad to try something else in their place and throw them in the trash. One thing I did was take a ruler and compare the measurements of a plain '79 LeTour to this '73 Paramount, and despite the Letour having brake mounts 15" from it's axles, it's chainstays and overall wheelbase and other specs seem identical to the Paramount and it's head/seat-tube angles look the same too, so Schwinn must have eventually patterned all of it's road bikes after the changes that first popped up in the P13v2. I always did think that LeTour handled great. Also I am disappointed in the ride qualities of the famous Reynolds 531 frame, it seems to ride no better than the LeTour or other straight gauge 70s bikes I have put thousands of miles on, and not as good as Columbus frames I have ridden. Not impressed with the Brooks saddle either at all. I did have fun fixing the frame up and am having a lot of fun learning about the history of Schwinn. To those who may think of spending a lot of money on an old Paramount, I would discourage them and tell them to get one of the mid-late 80s Schwinn road bikes sold with Columbus frame tubes, which can be found for sale dirt-cheap and will be a lot better riding and even lighter bike if that is important to them.
the “ I can tell the difference in the steel used” sure.
‘geometry and build luck or quality are the biggest factors. Hard to isolate. A bike magazine did it decades ago, all built by the same builder, same geometry. Inconclusive. Maybe a nod to the cheaper thicker tube set.
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10-07-23, 06:42 PM
#31
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Because all bicycle forums are absolutely clogged with posts about the misery caused by the slots and extra threads in headsets, it is the bane of all cyclists. If you have to dig that deep to find something nit-picky to say about a thread, then just go find something better to do with your life. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
10-07-23, 06:47 PM
#32
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Please tell us that you welded an insert inside of the steerer tube and didn't show that step. The idea that you welded the steerer tube back together end-to-end does not seem structurally sound to me.I love the creativity, but that particular junction scares me. I wouldn't ride it.
10-07-23, 06:51 PM
#33
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I had a fork steerer extended by cutting the steerer, inserting a plug, and brazing to desired length. Worked fine. (Okay, it's the same fork that tried to kill me a couple months ago, but that was a blade near the dropout, not the steerer, which was an remains solid as a rock: If that was the technique used here, I'd say it should be fine. But if it is just the two ends of the cut tube joined together, let's just say you are a braver man than I for riding it. Breaking a steerer at speed can lead to bad results a la George Hincapie at Paris-Roubaix.
I'm more curious about some of the other joints. The OP used the term "welded/brazed"; I sure hope all those joints were brazed and none of them were welded.
I'm more curious about some of the other joints. The OP used the term "welded/brazed"; I sure hope all those joints were brazed and none of them were welded.
10-07-23, 07:00 PM
#34
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If you're going to be insulting, perhaps you should go to the road cycling forum where such posts are more the norm. My observation was perfectly valid, and others (who you also insulted) expressed a similar opinion, since butt joining a steerer tube without reinforcement can produce a weak and dangerous result if not done perfectly; generally shortening would be gone by cutting the top off the steerer, not the middle.
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10-07-23, 07:01 PM
#35
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He talks about how a brazed joint just about killed him a couple months ago, then says he hopes all the joints on this project were brazed. Brilliant. He also apparently forgot about the many millions of bicycle frames in daily use that are of all welded construction. Funny how the people who have no idea what they are talking about, always talk the most, but then if you have no skill other than talking, you go with your strength.....
I was looking at your solution, and it was definately out of the box, and you saved a dead frame. I thought it was very clever use of the tools you had at hand. The only thing I would have suggested is shortening the tips of the seat stays before brazing them back on, but that's just an aesthetic issue.
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10-07-23, 07:02 PM
#36
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He talks about how a brazed joint just about killed him a couple months ago, then says he hopes all the joints on this project were brazed. Brilliant. He also apparently forgot about the many millions of bicycle frames in daily use that are of all welded construction. Funny how the people who have no idea what they are talking about, always talk the most, but then if you have no skill other than talking, you go with your strength.....
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10-07-23, 07:29 PM
#37
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If you're going to be insulting, perhaps you should go to the road cycling forum where such posts are more the norm. My observation was perfectly valid, and others (who you also insulted) expressed a similar opinion, since butt joining a steerer tube without reinforcement can produce a weak and dangerous result if not done perfectly; generally shortening would be gone by cutting the top off the steerer, not the middle.
10-07-23, 07:50 PM
#38
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He talks about how a brazed joint just about killed him a couple months ago, then says he hopes all the joints on this project were brazed. Brilliant. He also apparently forgot about the many millions of bicycle frames in daily use that are of all welded construction. Funny how the people who have no idea what they are talking about, always talk the most, but then if you have no skill other than talking, you go with your strength.....
Both the erased second draft and this third draft are a lot more polite than my three-word first draft. I may not be posting that first draft, but I'm still thinking it.
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10-07-23, 08:07 PM
#39
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Too bad it didn't get repaired correctly by a qualified frame builder. Just be cause you can, doesn't mean you should.
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10-07-23, 10:19 PM
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I also have a busted Paramount, w/ a crack in the chainstay dropout joint, but only on the back half of it. When I was talking to Kurt about it, or maybe Mad Honk, one of them had mentioned that there was someone that did a repair on a bike with nearly the exact same issue by tigging the crack up and thus were able to save the chrome. Curious as to if you think that may or may not be a good call, considering its 531...
@88ss please add me to your ignore list
You've got an awesome project, and I love to 'git 'r done' ingenuity you've displayed, but these are good dudes you are talking smack to, that are just trying to help. Ya gotta be open to feedback man. A sleeve inserted in the fork steerer is a pretty important detail to either have or leave out, because it can mean the difference between a fork that stays together or not. You obviously have some talent with a torch, and not just anyone would attempt what you did, especially on a Paramount of all things. I would take any critique you hear as some very, very respected ppl on this forum trying to enhance you. Bye bye...
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10-07-23, 10:43 PM
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Wow, went out for a ride and come back to another gone off the rails thread from a newbie, imagine that.
I knew we were off to an interesting start, unknown guy performs improbable repair/hack with unusual acumen, impresses and brags.
Receives constructive criticism, becomes defensive and blows up mostly well meaning and concerned discussion.
Classic.
I knew we were off to an interesting start, unknown guy performs improbable repair/hack with unusual acumen, impresses and brags.
Receives constructive criticism, becomes defensive and blows up mostly well meaning and concerned discussion.
Classic.
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10-07-23, 10:47 PM
#42
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Wow, went out for a ride and come back to another gone off the rails thread from a newbie, imagine that.
I knew we were off to an interesting start, unknown guy performs improbable repair/hack with unusual acumen, impresses and brags.
Receives constructive criticism, becomes defensive and blows up mostly well meaning and concerned discussion.
Classic.
I knew we were off to an interesting start, unknown guy performs improbable repair/hack with unusual acumen, impresses and brags.
Receives constructive criticism, becomes defensive and blows up mostly well meaning and concerned discussion.
Classic.
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10-07-23, 10:56 PM
#43
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10-08-23, 01:59 PM
#44
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Anyway, good luck with your bike. I hope you get many happy miles out of it.
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10-08-23, 04:58 PM
#45
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Reminded me decades ago on the old framebuilders bikelist where a participant -Mallard? Was describing how he built up a crushed top tube with lots of brass, I think pounded into shape a bit first.
10-08-23, 08:10 PM
#46
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The second draft of this post was a fairly detailed explanation of why your post is oh-so-wrong and explaining why welding a Paramount made of Reynolds 531, as opposed to brazing it, is a bad idea. It also included a brief discussion of why the millions of welded frames in the world could safely be welded. I erased it because you simply aren't worth it.
Both the erased second draft and this third draft are a lot more polite than my three-word first draft. I may not be posting that first draft, but I'm still thinking it.
Both the erased second draft and this third draft are a lot more polite than my three-word first draft. I may not be posting that first draft, but I'm still thinking it.
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10-08-23, 08:16 PM
#47
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Wow, went out for a ride and come back to another gone off the rails thread from a newbie, imagine that.
I knew we were off to an interesting start, unknown guy performs improbable repair/hack with unusual acumen, impresses and brags.
Receives constructive criticism, becomes defensive and blows up mostly well meaning and concerned discussion.
Classic.
I knew we were off to an interesting start, unknown guy performs improbable repair/hack with unusual acumen, impresses and brags.
Receives constructive criticism, becomes defensive and blows up mostly well meaning and concerned discussion.
Classic.
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10-08-23, 08:35 PM
#49
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I know nothing about frame repairs, braising, or welding. If someone can make these repairs, and they work, well good for them, there’s many recipes for making a cake. My way of making sourdough bread may not be your way, and that’s okay.
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10-08-23, 08:35 PM
#50
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