88ss

Nine days ago I repaired the frame on this Paramount which had it's seat-tube broke off at the bottom bracket. Shortened seat-tube 5/8" and shaped it to fit back into BB, shortened head-tube and steer tube to match, then welded/brazed it all back together. Two days later after parts scrounging I was riding it as a single-speed, then a few days further on it got derailleurs and a Campy shifter and cable-guide to make it fully functional. Now it has done a hundred miles over rough streets, smooth streets and up a number of grades up to 8% with a 200+ pound rider and it's repairs seem fine. Previous local owner had stripped it bare for parts and had some of them on ebay for sale, I talked them into selling me the fork and they threw the frame in for another $25. Put on the road with mostly Shimano parts out of the junk-box, will phase Campy parts in as I trip over them in the future including a set of Record hubs I picked up at a local estate sale earlier this year. Lots of fun to ride, and who knows someday it may get back into some sort of race.

davester

I'm no expert, but that steerer tube repair looks scary as heck to me. Wondering why you didn't just cut the top off and extend the threads.

repechage

I don’t know what to say.

maybe clever way to save the headlug chrome
hopefully the seat and head tube were parallel

i guess one could call it chopped and channeled

ascherer 

Gobsmacked. Either madness or genius!

panzerwagon 

Not only that, but it was a squandered opportunity to eliminate that pesky slotted portion of the threads, as well as reduce the threaded section to the bare minimum needed for the headset upper.

merziac

This gives "frame fitting" a whole new meaning.

AdventureManCO 

I like it!

merziac

Where's @scarlson when we need him.

nlerner

Unfortunately, he finished his degree program and is now a working stiff. Far less time for bikes!

merziac

Phftttt!!!!

mhespenheide 

Please tell us that you welded an insert inside of the steerer tube and didn't show that step. The idea that you welded the steerer tube back together end-to-end does not seem structurally sound to me.

I love the creativity, but that particular junction scares me. I wouldn't ride it.

88ss

What I like about this bike is it's history. It was sold new at Pete's Cycle in Maryland, a famous motor/bicycle shop. I talked to them and they quit selling bicycles in the 1990s. Another interesting bit of history is that the 1973 Paramount P13 version 2, may be the first, or one of the first USA mass-produced bikes to have 700c wheels when new, and I am very glad it has them, the brake mounts are an inch closer to the axle centers than on bikes that came with 27" wheels. It is nice to have a purpose-made racing bike. A friend of mine who has a P-13 they bought new in the 70s donated the Paramount head-badge and Campy shifters and cable guide from his stash, thank-you very much. I heard that production was at an all-time high for Paramount bikes in the early 70s, so maybe the quality suffered a little and it is why this bike broke??? This bike was $450 back in '73. I have had other ten-speed Schwinn bikes from this era and this bike is about ten pounds lighter than many of them give or take. I had this sitting in the basement since spring, but I had the torches out to work on the exhaust on my wife's automobile so dug it out and finally got it fixed. thank-you for your interest.

AdventureManCO 

Anecdotal, but can confirm. Mine (a '72) broke at the chainstay/dropout joint, likely from not having enough braze filler. Only one side is cracked. What a junker!

bikingshearer 

I had a fork steerer extended by cutting the steerer, inserting a plug, and brazing to desired length. Worked fine. (Okay, it's the same fork that tried to kill me a couple months ago, but that was a blade near the dropout, not the steerer, which was an remains solid as a rock: If that was the technique used here, I'd say it should be fine. But if it is just the two ends of the cut tube joined together, let's just say you are a braver man than I for riding it. Breaking a steerer at speed can lead to bad results a la George Hincapie at Paris-Roubaix.

I'm more curious about some of the other joints. The OP used the term "welded/brazed"; I sure hope all those joints were brazed and none of them were welded.

squirtdad

the modification were covered in frame builders. most seem ok, but had not seen similar. my take on the welding was done to the fork steerer, but could be very wrong https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...rame-work.html

repechage

aluminum steerer, no washer between headset and stem. That was swept under the cobbles pretty fast!

pastorbobnlnh 

Welcome to C&V and posting how you rescued your Paramount from the scrap heap. Kudos for your fine frame work in order to give it a second life!

I grew up in Joppa, just a few miles from Pete's Cycle in Bel Air. I rode my bike there often and admired the Schwinns, Hondas, and Yamahas. This was in the late '60s until the mid-70s when I left for college. I bought many spare parts, tools, and my first leather saddle at Pete's.

Can you post a picture of the Pete's Cycle shop decal/sticker on your P13? It would bring back fond memories.

Are you saying that in 1973 the P13 could be ordered with either tubular wheels or 700c clinchers? If so, I've never seen this specification as a possibility. Maybe I've missed this detail somewhere along the way in the past two decades since I immersed myself in Paramount culture (I currently own a '71 P13 and an '83 Waterford Standard. I've also restored a '66 P13). I'd be interested in reading more about this.

Also, I don't believe it was ever accurate to describe Paramounts as "mass-produced." Each frameset was individually built and only by a limited number of people. Even when they had to contract out frames, i.e. Don Mainland, the work was only done by one individual, one frameset at a time. If you haven't read the history of Paramount frames at Waterford, it is worth the read.

88ss

I know zero about Paramounts, this is the only one I have ever had. All I can do is the same as anyone else in my shoes, get info from the internet from web sites like the Kurt Kaminer one which has a nice article on the different versions of Paramounts. The P13 version-2 apparently popped up in 1971 as a pure racer with the 700 size wheels, no eyelets on the dropouts for luggage racks, no brazed on cable stops on the top tube, new for '72 is a different fork allegedly for handling improvement. I am just glad the bike was made for the newer wheel size because there is vastly more choices in tires than for 27" bikes.
This bike seems to have quick steering, it is not squirrely though as a few times I have taken it down steep hills at over 30mph and even did some slaloming during the descent to see how it behaved and there is nothing scary about it despite it's tall frame size, it is rock solid. It's ride is more stiff than a Columbus tubed bike, I would not look for one of these for it's comfort over rough roads. A pair of Conti gp5000s would help for sure. I am glad to have it over one of the earlier Paramounts just for it's modern features, and it is also one of the real old Paramounts from the 70s, and I am a fan of 70s and older things because that is when I was young and it is a nostalgia thing for me.

88ss

Here you go;

pastorbobnlnh 

88ss thanks for making the clarification about the 700c sized wheels and that you found the information on the Head Badge.

Kurt is a friend (also to many here on C&V) and a prolific poster since 2005. His username is cudak888 and his Paramount Registry is a valuable asset to all Paramount owners.

To clarify, the change in P13 versions, to which he refers, and you noted, was not for 700c clincher or wired on wheels, but specifically refers to tubular wheelsets.

Prior to 1971, all models of Paramount men's road bike shared the same geometry, build features, forks, and tubing lengths for specific frame sizes. Even though a P13 came equipped with tubular wheels in the 622mm size (aka 700c), the frame was sized to handle the larger 630mm (aka 27") clincher/wired on wheelsets. A drop bolt was utilized on the Campagnolo brake calipers in order to reach the tubular wheelset.

Sometime during 1971, the P13 began receiving the changes that you mention. Kurt started a thread on this transition 13 years ago. Initially, IIRC, he concluded the transition occurred sometime in late spring. However, we found examples from earlier in the year which incorporated the changes, including my early March 1971 P13.

My '71 P13 somewhere west of Schulenburg, TX on a cold, wet, day in March 2023, thus the failure to take the picture from the drive-side. PS, the roads were rather rough that day but my Paramount provided a comfortable ride.

I do hope this is helpful information. Of course, 700c clincher wheelsets pair nicely on P13s, and for riders who don't want to run tubulars, this is a great alternative. I have also squeezed 27 X 1&1/8 wheels on my P13.

Finally, do you live in Harford County?

scarlson 

Santana did the butt welded steerer on some of their particularly tall custom tandems. I guess they couldn't get long enough steerers? My dad, a very tall guy who wanted 26" wheels for a travel tandem, did multiple loaded tours on one, totaling a year on the road. No issues.

That said, I'd probably cut the threads farther down. I bought a cheap steerer die, which I have used a couple times to shorten steerers. As long as the internal butts work out to allow a stem down in there, all's well with that approach. My steerer die is just a 1x24 die I got from China on Ebay. I think it was $40 for the die plus the die holder/handles. I slotted it with an angle grinder so I have some adjustment in the thread fit.

scarlson 

Yeah, and this summer has been crazy. I had to find/move apartments, move out of Harvard, start the job, and fix a ton of overdue car problems myself, since this job requires a car. The job turned out to be waaay too much travel, which I found out in September, after having spent half the worknights in hotels far away from the expensive Arlington Heights apartment we've got now. What's the point?! So I just made a lateral move into a more locally based position at the same company, which is conveniently situated near the end of a 10 mile bike path that goes by my new apartment. So I may be able to bike commute and lose some of the weight I put on during the Ph.D. and broken leg saga of last year.

The whole thing has been a mess. Herse, Cooper, and Taylor are in storage in NH right now, along with the majority of my bike junkpile and a ton of SAAB car parts I need to sell or give away. I just did my first real ride in 2 months today!! Anddd found out I need a new back tire for my Trek. So, I'm still out of the game for another while - at least until I get the cars in good shape and the commuter bikes back on the road.

[ /thread_hijack ]

scarlson 

I looked through the thread here and on the framebuilders forum. Seems fine! @88ss good work!

Ride on, brave frame butchers!

Erzulis Boat 

If the weld is done properly, then the steerer modification is just fine. I would have just threaded it down, but that steerer isn't going to fail.
High(er) stressed stuff is butt-welded all the time. Love the save 88ss!

88ss

Thank-you Boat and "Scarlson". Simply, My method kept me from having to remove a head-tube lug and ruin it's beautiful chrome, Also it let me do the work with no frame jig and no tools to thread steer tubes so I spent nothing but a few hours time with what I had on hand.
Again today I had a lot of fun racking up some miles on this bike, doing some fast riding to beat some sketchy weather on the way home. I have been riding a number of thousands of miles per year lately, and if that continues I can see me racking up a few thousand on this bike over the next year.