Turnin_Wrenches

A question to those who train for and participate in single-stage ultra-distance races (>500 miles, >800 km): How long are your long training rides when preparing for an event?

I caught the ultra-distance bug a few years ago and have been hooked ever since. However, due to physical issues (primarily foot related) I'm currently limited to the shorter end of the ultra-distance spectrum, focusing on 500-mile races.

When preparing for a race, my "long" training rides typically top out at 200 miles (total weekly volume tops out between 500 and 600 miles). Spending 10-12 hours in the saddle with minimal break time is enough to be physically challenging without pushing beyond my ability to recover quickly. I generally try to do 2-3 double centuries in the weeks leading up to a race along with a bunch of century rides. In the final week before a race I pretty much chill, doing just enough riding at a zone 1 / zone 2 pace to keep the legs fresh. It's worked out well, as I've never DNF'd and have finished every race I've entered.

While my training is working for me (generally speaking), I'm curious how others plan and structure their training rides leading up to a big event. Thanks in advance!

rando_couche

Back in my rando days (10-20 yrs ago), I concluded that if I could handle 100 miles comfortably, I could handle any distance. Not fast, but solidly "mid-pack", with a few "two century" training weekends, just to put my mind at ease. My time at the 2008 Rocky Mountain 1200 was 79:50. Solidly mid-pack.

unterhausen

I always thought that anything up to 300km had a positive training effect. 400km seemed to be a little counterproductive for me, and I spent too much time recovering. But 100km is a nice training distance, because recovery is almost immediate. After a nap. Even 100km is something I wouldn't do more than a couple of times a week, that's enough. Burnout is quite possible if you ride too much. But I have ridden much more than that and it definitely makes you faster. One aspect is how fast you can do those distances, because if it takes too much time, then burnout is more likely.

I have seen the top distance racers will often do long rides. And I recently saw something about how you need to ride over 15 (20?) hours a week to be in top shape.

Turnin_Wrenches

100k is a good distance for a higher-intensity ride when I'm actively training for an event, otherwise it's generally too short of a distance at endurance pace.

unterhausen

I'm only vaguely curious why you asked the question in the OP if you didn't want people's opinions. I doubt I will be checking your thread, good luck in any races you do

Turnin_Wrenches

I didn't intend for my response to be off-putting. I just shared my thought as to how I would utilize the 100k distance within the context of training for an ultra-distance event. It didn't mean I don't appreciate your opinion.

Thanks for your feedback. Happy Riding

downtube42

Generally I'm targeting a 1000 km or 1200 km brevet, and my training is an SR series plus keeping my R-12 going The last year or so I started a P-12, so that's an added training load.

​​​​

Turnin_Wrenches

Thanks for the responses. However, I'd like to make it clear this is not a randonneuring thread. From my perspective ultradistance and randonneuring are very different. Thanks.

EDIT: Per the Randonneurs USA web site... Randonneuring is long-distance unsupported endurance cycling. This style of riding is non-competitive in nature, and self-sufficiency is paramount.

This thread pertains to single-stage ultradistance races, not randonneuring. Yes, there is some overlap in the sense that both are long-distance formats. Other than that they are pretty different animals.

downtube42

I did 24 hour races for four years iirc, after my first pbp. I agree they are different, particularly psychologically during the event. When training for an ultra distance goal I did more interval training, more weight lifting, even some spin classes.

Turnin_Wrenches

24 hr. races are mentally challenging. It's not so much the time on the bike, it's the fact that you're riding in circles basically going nowhere. There is no destination, the timer just runs out.

I much prefer point-to-point events from a psychological perspective. There's a destination, the scenery changes, it's mentally engaging along the way. That being said, I need to do more 24 hr. events. It's a wonderful format for developing proper pacing and mental toughness. It's also a relatively safe format because you're never too far from the start/finish if something goes wrong.

For anyone who's comfortable racing double-centuries and is curious about ultradistance, I think 24 hr. events are a great way to start. The physical challenge is similar to a 500-mile race, the mental challenge might be more intense than a 500-mile point-to-point race, and if you DNF in a 24 hr. event you're not stuck out in the middle of nowhere.

Regarding your comment about weight lifting, it's been on my "need to start doing that" list for about 2 years and I just can't get my butt in gear. I'm curious to know what type of lifting you do and how frequently, as weight lifting is an aspect of training about which I know very little.

Steamer

Well, that's gonna shut down the conversation, for sure. From what I have seen, most of the folks who stop in here from time to time are randonneurs. Very few ultra racers here. Aside from who might frequent BF, I have noticed that ultra racers don't spend time on the internet. Not sure why. Just what I have observed.

unterhausen

It's really hard for a randonneur to agree that there isn't overlap between distance racing and randonneuring. RUSA is run by a batch of people who have been ignoring the fact that randonneuring started as racing, and the statement on the RUSA website is a political statement. But they don't make the rules for randonneuring, the ACP does. I know randonneurs that have raced TABR and RAAM. At the front, PBP is a race. That is the defining event of randonneuring.

It seems to me that in any of the long distance races, the first few people might be going faster, but the majority of riders converge on a below-randonneuring minimum pace soon enough. Well before 1200k, in most cases. And I have also seen so many people fall apart early in TABR, just as one example, that it makes me think they should have been riding randonneuring events to harden up a little. So many people blow up at around 400km. I know it's a tough 400k, but so are many RUSA 400k brevets.

Tourist in MSN

For completely different reasons I use a leg press at a gym a few times a week. If I can do 10 reps and a few minutes later can do 10 reps again, if I am at that stage for a few weeks I add one more weight. I do this during winter. During summer, I try to do this periodically but less often, and when I go less often I find I am reducing weight. And the following fall and winter am trying to increase it again.

And occasionally do an hour on the stair master. After an initial 15 minutes of warming up I set the speed at the pace that gives me a pretty high heart rate, but a rate well below my calculated max. I do not have heart problems, but I do not want to develop any from overdoing it is my guide here. I wear hiking boots and ankle weights on the stair master.

Several years ago I saw someone at the gym that must have been trying to get ready to pass a physical test. I saw her a few times at the gym wearing full firefighter gear on the stair master. She was not breathing supplied air but was wearing the air tank, etc.

I am not a racer and have never aspired to be. I am at an age where maintaining muscle mass and bone strength takes work, that is why I do it. (I rode my first brevet at age 65.)

Turnin_Wrenches

Leg presses and time on the stairmaster probably help out quite a bit in the off-season. Anything that works the legs, especially the glutes, is good for cycling.

Turnin_Wrenches

You make some very good points. There is indeed a lot of overlap between ultradistance cycling and randonneuring, as well as benefit to to be gained from doing both. However, there is some divergence as it applies to training, mindset, and equipment. I'd venture to guess that most randonneurs are not out doing high intensity interval training to any great extent, nor are they trying to hold a cruising speed of 20+ mph for any significant duration of time. Most randonneurs are also not competing in long distance time trials on time trial bikes.

Time limits for ultradistance races are less forgiving than for randonneuring events. I think Paris-Brest-Paris, which is about 750 miles, has a time limit of 90 hours. Whereas, a typical 500-mile ultradistance race will have a time limit of 48 hours.

Randonneuring (as I understand it) is also inherently a self-supported discipline, but also one that allows event participants to ride in groups (with some limitations) and provide assistance to one another. Ultradistance in most cases involves a solo effort. It can be either unsupported or supported. Drafting and riding in groups is strictly prohibited. There are team categories in ultracycling (usually 2, 4 or 8 person teams) in which drafting within the team is allowed, but that's the only exception to the "no drafting" rule.

downtube42

RUSA is administering ACP policy and rules. From the ACP rules:I don't think the ACP could be any more clear, that randonneuring is not racing. In addition, control opening times, and overall finish times, are based on the ACP specified maximum speeds:​​​​​
An 18mph speed limit is hardly consistent with a bike race. As I understand, the ACP imposed this maximum specifically to discourage professional racers from participating in PBP, after it ended as a professional race in 1951.

There are many ACP rules that are inconsistent with racing.

Yes, people on the front of PBP are competing, and yes we all know who finishes first. It's not sanctioned as a race, it's not run as a race, the rules are not racing rules, the officials are not race officials. It's nothing more than some fast guys on the front of an amateur non competitive event, racing each other for bragging rights.

unterhausen

Actions speak louder than words. They have, in the past, threatened to get rid of the top 10 of PBP. Then they present them at the post ride dinner. They homologated 2023's best time even though it beat the lower limit.
In any event, crossover with racers is good, I think. If it's not competitive, why are there time limits? 100% of all RBAs I know of make mention of the first finisher.

downtube42

I think Americans, and likely other anglophiles, Germans, likely other cultures, have difficulty understanding and accepting what is culturally a French sport. There are the rules of the sport, and there is the spirit of the sport. In many cultures, the rules are what matter, whereas in the French view the spirit is what matters and the rules attempt to codify that spirit. Randonneuring is about self sufficiency, comeraderie, respect, resilience. Speed is consistent with the spirit of randonneuring, but just enough speed is respected. Drafting is consistent with the spirit, but drafting to protect your team leader so he can launch an attack is not.

I can understand the ACP debating within itself whether the first finishers should be honored or ignored, respected or disallowed. Because I think the first finishers are marginally within the spirit of the sport. Whereas those with a racing mentality would rather see the slow people disrespected and potentially eliminated from the sport. This later point, that racing mentality disrespects slower people, is what clearly and absolutely does not align with the spirit of the sport.

Turnin_Wrenches

The comments above nicely summarize why I identify as an ultradistance cyclist. IMO, the rules of the discipline and the spirit of the discipline line up quite well.

Nobody is arguing over whether it's a race or not a race in ultradistance. It's a race! Does that mean that slow(er) riders are looked down upon by the elite riders of the discipline? Absolutely not! In fact, just the opposite. As one of the slower riders in the events in which I participate, I have been treated just like everyone else. The more experienced riders have been very generous with their advice and their support. Because it is such a small community I think everyone who does ultracycling is usually excited to see more people join the fun, and everyone legitimately wants to see everyone else succeed in reaching the finish line.

The rules of ultracycling also contribute to the positive dynamic. There is no drafting, there is no riding in groups. There are no rules that muddy the waters as to what an ultradistance race is. It's a solo effort. Each participant is riding his or her race with very little interaction with other riders on the course. For the most part we don't even see each other between the start of the race and the finish line. It's just you, your bike, and the universe. At the finish line you are warmly greeted by the other competitors who just kicked your ass and we have a big party. Everyone's effort is celebrated and everyone is proud of what they accomplished (regardless of where you finished among the field).

downtube42

After 2 years of randonneuring, I dabbled in ultra at the N24H Challenge. It was fellow randos who made me aware of ultras. I set a goal of 400 miles and took four tries to get there. At the end of the 4 year period, I decided randonneuring aligned better with my interests. I can definitely see someone being more interested in ultras. Anyone who has done both knows there are similarities; being on the bike 24 hours for a Fleche, a 400k, a 600k, or a 24 hour race presents common challenges. But it's also different.

Turnin_Wrenches

^ This is the post that started this thread. It's a simple, straight-forward question about ultradistance training. The thread quickly devolved into a discussion about ultradistance vs randonneuring, which is an interesting topic, but not the intended topic of this thread. Perhaps someone could start a separate thread about the similarities, differences, overlap, etc. between the two disciplines if that's what folks would prefer to discuss. Thanks.

Carbonfiberboy 

15 years ago i did some rando for a few years, but nothing over 400k. For me, the best training was a 4-5 hour hilly ride, ridden TT style, that is for my lowest possible elapsed time. The lowest elapsed time thing is the interesting part. Working on that taught me how to pace myself on differing terrain and how to stay fed and hydrated. I could do one of those rides once a week and still get in some good midweek mileage. Then maybe once a month I'd do something longer, like a double or a long mountain ride. Luckily we have mountains around here. Other than that, the SR series is good and necessary.

About that "race" discussion, well my club posted finishing times. 'nuf said. And backing up one poster, yes, folks near the bottom of that list were also admired. Good for them! I was tempted to do a slow brevet, talk a lot and take photos - except that I dislike riding at night. It happened that one of our fastest riders wound up marrying one of our slowest, if not the slowest rider. They're a good couple.