gmcjetpilot

We are getting off the pannier question to am I an old fart who can't ride and the qualifications of my vintage bikes gear radios.. Yes I am an old fart but I can ride. Yes my vintage bike is awesome. ha ha.

Totally agree pushing up hill, with a cargo load or not sucks. I try and pack light and pick routes that are flat to moderate not like "Col du Galibier", toughest climb section in the Tour de France. I am trying to get more fit by biking but I am not athlete. This is for fun not masochism. I have nothing to prove. So the answer is yes. The gearing is low enough. Regardless of gear / inches, gear ratio, or furlong–firkin–fortnight she is good to go. It is not like I will go out and buy another touring bike, not even going to entertain changing the drivetrain for optimum. As far as past touring I road back and forth between school and home for 4 years with a back pack full of text books, 6 miles RT and some hills. But I was in my 20's. I am a tad older now.
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My normal ride of late is about 8-10 miles locally with no cargo as I get back into the Bike hobby. So cross country touring will be a learning / adventure thing, a challenge. You either meet the challenge or not. I do need better conditioning but that is the whole idea of riding the bike. Start with short trips on the flats and work my way up. At some point you have to hang up the clipless shoes (which I don't own and may never).

The weak link would be me and conditioning not gear ratio.. If my legs and heart are not strong enough in low gear to ride up a grade, me bees walk-in or call-in Uber. Ha ha. The gear ratio can only be so low practically. I am sure you know more about bikes but I go on my experience. I have not rode distance in decades. It is pretty simple however, pedal, and if needed pedal harder. You do or don't. Trying is the goal. . My motto "Run what you brung" and to quote the famous philosopher, Clint Eastwood, "a man got to know his limitations".

I did a bike tour from the top of Haleakala volcano Hawaii. You rent the bike and they drive you and the group with the bikes to the top to see the sunrise. You coast down, plus there is a 5 to 10 mile ride at the bottom on the flats. I recall some bikers trying to climb it as our gaggle was coasting down. Good for them. Besides my other road bike and folding bike, my other two wheel bike has a 1150 cc twin engine. That is for hill climbing. Ha ha. Cheating? Yes, unabashedly so. All I can do is try or sit on the couch...

Great advice above. Thank you very much Bike Forum community, sharing your knowledge and experience.

PS rain proof is important, but in general I am not going to ride all day in the rain but a short time. If it is raining hard I will stop and take shelter. I do that on a bicycle or motorcycle. I still put high value on water proof. I did several day long canoe trips back in the day.. Flipping and getting wet was a real possibility. Civilization and shelter was limited, you had to keep your gear dry.

djb

Hey there Mr Beemer, have fun no matter what you do, and if you get out regularly and do whatever distance is comfortable, fitness will gradually come.

Re panniers, I'd keep an eye out in your areas used market, Craigslist or whatever. Folks regularly sell stuff that's been kicking around in closets for years, so just keep an eye out regularly and finding a good deal is possible.

If your bike really has been in storage for a long time, it's probably worth getting it checked out, there might be some stuff that needs adjusting, greased it whatever--just so you can enjoy it without any problems. If the tires are super old, they might need replacing, that sort of thing.

indyfabz

Time to bounce. Ha ha.

polymorphself 

I wonder if this is universally true in the vintage world. It seems to me that many touring bikes, pre ~1985 or so when lowrider mounts became commonplace, came equipped with a rear rack (if any), and rarely front (with exceptions). The expectation as far as marketing materials was concerned at least implies that a rear load was commonplace. You also see this in many photos from the 70s and before, particularly around the UK. Not a lot of people using much or anything at all up front.

djb

Polly, it really depended on how much stuff you piled on the back of the bike and how (heavy stuff low, far back etc) and the bike frame. Most bikes from that era were more flexy and for example, when the Cannondale aluminium touring bike came out, it was much stiffer and handled so much better than touring bikes before.
The aluminium cross bike I got to replace my old tourer was way more competent with a load.
So while front rack panniers weren't used back then, that doesn't mean the bikes weren't more flexy, we just lived with it and learned to lessen the load if we wanted the bikes to handle better.
Still had fun though!
My first trip was with rear panniers only and it was fine, with probably similar gearing to this ( not low enough!)

dvdwmth

I noticed today that ortlieb now has a more classic with a flap and side pocket. Arkel has some more classic style bags but very $. No special feelings about ortliebs on my part but they are widely available.

dvdwmth

Randonneur has come to mean something very specific these days, but clearly this is classic touring bike.

When people mention the gearing, keep in mind that modern bikes have a lot cogs. What are we up to? Twelve? You know your tolerance for pushing up a hill better than anyone, but people in forums are likely to point out that there are many options for an easier time while climbing with a load.

cyccommute 

Low riders were developed for pre-1985 touring bikes. I was using low-rider racks by 1984. August 1984 outside of Braemar, Scotland.




Yes, rear racks were more common but having ridden heavily rear loaded short(red) wheel base sport touring bike down a long fast downhill, I can tell you that it is a scary handful. Blackburn and Berto’s article in bicycling magazine about the use of low-riders was specifically to address the issue of the “tail wagging the dog” touring loads. The low-rider rack was an aftermarket add-on as low-riders have been ever since. There are a few exceptions but there are very few touring bikes that have ever come with front low-riders as original equipment.

cyccommute 

Yup. And I have low gears that most people…including low gear lovers…think are too low. 20/36 on my road bike and 20/40 on my bikepacking bike. That’s a 15” and 13” gear, respectively. I’ve ridden the 15” gear for a long time but only installed the 13” gear on my bike packing bike recently and haven’t used it with a load…yet.

I can even drop that 13” gear to a 12” because I have a 42 tooth cassette and a Wolf Tooth Road Link…and I’m not afraid to use it!

gmcjetpilot

Thank you. I understand 100%. Got it. My gear inches are 24" to 101". Yes it is low enough for me from my experience and preference. The internet recommends 18" to 25" for heavy touring weight to "credit card" touring. I understand gear ratios. Not a fan of super low gearing. In the mean time I will avoid high touring weights and steep ascents. Now getting back to Panniers, great tips and learning a lot. Some cool pictures (cyccommute)!!!

79pmooney

I missed the clamps Tyrion posted first page. Sweet! Those didn't exist when I was massing with the U-bolts decades ago. Much cleaner and far easier!

Smitty2k1

Look at that massive chainring... WOW

Would not want to spin fully loaded.

cyccommute 

I’m not sure how you are going to avoid steep ascents. I’ve been touring for 40+ years and don’t know how you would avoid it. Hills happen. On that same trip as my other picture, we had a 1:8 (12% grade) uphill up the Spittal of Glenshee.


I’ve run across numerous 25% grades in the eastern US…often one after the other. Even worse, I’ve ridden up 25% grades here in Colorado. The problem with those is that they are usually done with a lot less air


A 25% grade at 1000 feet or lower is a whole lot easier than one that is within spittin’ distance of 12,000 feet.



Especially if you’ve spent your life living at 5000 feet. Down in the thick air, I can bite off a chunk of air, tuck it ‘tween my cheek and gum, and suck on it all day. Our air is sippin’ air. It’s meant to be savored and not gulped.

gmcjetpilot

WOW. Ha ha. Oh good gosh. Enough with the gearing. You don't need super low 18" for moderate grades and weights. 25" is plenty low for me.

Smitty what does "fully loaded" mean? Does that mean drinking alcohol and riding? Ha ha. Sir I can travel very light, have strong legs and heart, and avoid steep grades. Don't worry about me. Let it go. It is fine. Thread drift. No more gear ratio discussion please, start another thread topic. The topic now is panniers, please. Cheers

You don't know how or where I ride. I am impressed with your abilities and biking accomplishments, but it is irrelevant to panniers. I know all about density altitude. I use to snow ski in Colorado and exerting yourself at high density altitudes can have physiological affects. I fly unpressurized aircraft to 12,500' without oxygen; above per regulations I use supplemental O2 but have tolerance to 18,000' as tested in a Baro chamber. Scary part is you don't know you are hypoxic. I don't smoke of course. When I fly a pressurized aircraft at work, cockpit altitude is pressurized to an equiv. of 8000' above MSL for 12 hours a day sometimes. I respect it. Trust me.

I assure you there are a lot of fun rides that don't involve mountain passes or high density altitudes, albeit without bragging rights. I have nothing to prove by takiing on mountain passes with a heavily laden bike. It's not my thing at this time. I want to sightsee, camp, relax and enjoy. I totally understand gear ratios 100%. I apologize I'm a casual rider not "hard core" rider. Climbing and payload requires lower gears. I totally get it. If for some reason I need to gear down I'll buy another bike. I respect and appreciate the comments, but never riding up Spittal of Glenshee with bags and don't feel a need right now to change gearing or bikes. I have a 2022 Bianchi with 18 speeds, aluminum frame, carbon forks. It has similar max/min gear inches except the new one is 2 x 9 and the vintage Bianchi is 3 x 6. However the vintage is oh so much more comfortable, stable.

You all please start another thread on the gear ratio topic if you like. For now if we can stick to Panniers with this thread, I'd appreciate it. Cool pictures BTW. Thank you. Cheers

indyfabz

Especially when one talks about riding across the country, like the OP did.

john m flores 

How many times does the OP have to say that he wants to keep the discussion focused on panniers and not gear ratios before people start getting the hint?

cyccommute 

Sorry if I offended you. No offense was intended. I was just pointing out that avoiding climbs isn’t something that is easy to do. I’ve ridden in 48 or the 50 states and have never found a tour that didn’t include at least some climbing. Even something as flat as the Katy Trail, requires climbing if you go off the trail in any direction. Climbs are actually worse east of the Mississippi than here in the west. While they may not be as high nor as long, there are more of them and they are steeper.

Again, I don’t mean to offend. Even the casual rider is going to round across climbs if the tour is of most any distance. Loaded bikes are harder to ride up those hills than unloaded bikes. Being prepared is better than walking up hills.

Fair enough. I’d suggest Ortliebs. Go with something simple like the front Sport Roller which is a 25L pannier set and a rear Back-Roller Classic which is a 40L pannier set. They are waterproof and are just a single large bag for each one. No pockets or organizers. Long ago, I had bags with all kinds of pockets and found them mostly useless. The pockets don’t fit much and make packing less organized. I found that I was always rummaging through pockets looking for something.

Ortliebs have the advantage over older and/or cheaper panniers of a much more robust system for fastening the pannier to the rack. Old style and/or cheap panniers use simple hooks with bungees to keep them tight on the rack. Often the bungee fails and the bags can bounce off. They are also more difficult to put on and take off. That bungee hook gets in the way. Ortliebs drop onto the rack and lock in place.

Use a low-rider with or without the front rack. You can find all kinds of racks that are Blackburn knockoffs on-line for around $40. The one I linked to can even be used with your front rack by removing the loop over the wheel and bolting it to the rack. One note on the front rack you have: I’ve had bikes with front racks like yours. I never found them to be all that useful. Lowriders and bags are usually more than enough for carrying gear. More space usually begs to be filled.

On packing: 60% front/40% rear. Put small heavy items like food and cooking gear in the front bags. Put light but bulky stuff in the rear bags. I usually organize my clothing in either large zip locks or small stuff sacks…one day’s riding clothes per bag. Zip locks have the advantage of being able to see into them and being more vertical so they arrange better.

Finally, you’ll notice that in the picture I posted from Scotland, that my wife is using only front panniers. If your load is small enough to fit in only one set of panniers, put them on the front. The wheel is stronger and the bike will ride better with a front load than piling stuff over the rear wheel.

RCMoeur 

Agree with others that adding front lowrider racks will improve load-carrying stability. Several of my bikes have front racks + lowriders - here's just one of them:


As for panniers: most of my riding is local or short tours, so I haven't had to deal much with extended adverse weather. My main go-to carrying system is folding baskets that hook onto the front or rear racks - very flexible and spacious, but not water-resistant. I've used close to a dozen pannier brands - most of them are good, and I like my Jandd Commuters for space and easy access, but fabric bags aren't as waterproof as other options. If you do go with Ortliebs, get roll-top closures and not zipper closures - my zip-up Ortlieb bag failed when the zipper tore during routine use, and is not covered under warranty.

gmcjetpilot

OH My Gosh... Read what I wrote.... When I say "cross country" I don't mean coast to coast and back again like Forest Gump/ Cross country as in 50, 100, 500 miles or whatever. I feel like. I WILL PICK ROUTES that don't involve LONG and steep grades. Also I can drive to a place, park, do a bike ride, out and back, camping one or more days, or a loop. I can park car at end point, and drive with friend in another car to starting point and ride 100's of miles one way, may be with descending terrain but at least flatter; I don't mind rolling hills and my gearing is fine for that.

I am FAR MORE WORRIED about being creamed by cars and trucks than huffing and puffing to crest a hill. Everyone made their points and they are ALL valid, but I am smart enough to figure out gearing and what works for me. I do appreciate the gearing comments and I will give it full consideration, but for now I am going to ride my ding dong bike and enjoy it as is gear inch 24" or 25" what ever it is.

Again this is for recreation and fun and good health not a conquest. For the record you can avoid Cascades, Sierra Nevada's, Rocky Mountains, Appalachian Mountains, Blue Ridge mountains on a very southern route. Most of Texas (except Western parts) Edwards Plains, Great Plains from Dakoda's, to Ohio and Appalachian Mountains South the Gulf of Mexico, Mississippi River basin North and South, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida is flat. For the many times I said it, one more time, NOT doing mountains. Nope.. If I do I will get lower gearing or put a motor on it (aka my motorcycle).

Let it go folks. Back to Panniers... To those staying on topic I thank you. Learning a lot. Cheers.

PS this is my last reply on gears to this thread.. So go nuts with more gear comments and things that don't apply to me.. Ride safe.

indyfabz

Cross country means across the country.

In any event…Pony up for some Ortliebs and be done with it.

pdlamb

OK, so when you're saying "cross country" you really mean a day trip or maybe an overnight, between Florida and central Texas. I think you've had the opportunity to learn that in the Touring forum, "cross country ride" means riding across the country (U.S. for the most part).

So for your southern day rides, you can probably get by with a handlebar bag; no need for panniers. An Ortlieb should carry everything you need for a day trip, even a longer one: rain gear, sunscreen, snacks, possibly a change of clothes. In that limited region, a couple large water bottles should suffice to get you from one water spigot or convenience store to the next. If you're going for an overnight at a B&B, a seat pack will let you add in an extra days' clothes, or the smaller Ortlieb panniers (Sports Packer or Sports Roller) should carry enough to camp out for a night and ride back to your car the next day.

I won't address your fear of getting run over here since that would constitute thread drift.

cyccommute 

“Cross country” doesn’t necessarily mean riding all the way across the country. I’ve never done it the Trans America but I would consider any of my tours to be across parts of the country. I’ve actually done more mileage on several tours than I would have on a single ride across the country.

And, to keep this discussion on track, I find 4 to 5 day trips to be the worst to plan, pack, and execute. For 3 days, it’s fairly simple to carry enough food to get me through breakfast and dinner. At 4 to 5 days, that’s a lot more food to carry or I have to find a grocery store to buy something. It’s kind of a pain.

It’s easy enough to carry clothing since I can cover the entire span fairly easy without having to do laundry. On long tours, I do laundry every three days. For 4 to 5 days, I either have to stop to do laundry which is a pain or carry more clothing…and more weight…so that I have enough clothes to cover the whole 5 days. I simply won’t do laundry every night. I’ve got better things to do at night.

Generally, I also find it hard to get into a rhythm on a short trip. After about 5 days, I’ve worked out how my days are going to go with regard to making camp, breaking camp, cooking, planning routes, etc. Even sleep is easier after about 4 days.

thumpism 

Here's a link to my thread on a TransAm E>W attempt. You might find some of the pannier, gearing and motorist observations helpful. I wish you luck and, as one old fart to another, train before you depart. Have fun!

https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/1...truncated.html

indyfabz

Ortlieb makes/made zip ups?

I have their Packers front and rear. Things stay nice and dry.

TiHabanero

Ortliebs are excellent, however there is more than one way to skin a cat. Been using Jandd packs for over 20 years, yes the same panniers for 20+ years and have yet to have a zipper failure, a shock cord failure, or a mount failure. I've crashed several times and the panniers stayed put on the rack. Nope, not waterproof, don't need to be as I always wrap items in a plastic bag or similar.
For organizational purposes I like to group all my t-shirts together, shorts together, socks together, etc. Even if I were using waterproof panniers, for organizational reasons I'd still group like items together as it makes life on the road much easier.

This summer I will be using my own fork mounted anything bags for the first time. Made the mounting racks that mount to each fork blade and use 10L waterproof stuff sacks made of the same materials Ortliebs are made from. First time using roll top bags, hope they aren't too much of a bother. Combined with the Jandd Economy panniers all should be fine. Also use a Jandd Touring handlebar bag. Has a map case on top, and holds a lot of stuff. Hooked up a shoulder strap for use off bike.