dvdwmth

A couple days after I posted to this thread I found some serratus panniers used twice for $40. Serratus was mountain equipment coops house brand and in my experience they were built crazy tough. I guess mostly only findable in Canada but point is used market has deals. The pic here is the model but not the ones I bought.

Serratus panniers

Tourist in MSN

Do not rule out the option of pushing a bike up the steepest hills. I just got home from a tour and there was a detour that was 20 plus miles of very steep up and down hills. I pushed the bike up a lot of hills that day to keep my heart rate down in a reasonable range. I lost count of how many hills I pushed it up, maybe 10 or 12? Even my touring partner that had a 20T granny gear (smallest chainring) pushed his bike up a couple hills.

Yan 

So you people just dump everything into your Ortliebs? No bags? Let me understand this correctly: your repair tools are simply freely mingling amongst your food? And how do you separate clean and dirty laundry? You do a sniff test on your underwear every morning to find out which one to wear next?

What I do is one bag for clean laundry, one bag for dirty laundry. The dirt laundry bag is placed inside the clean laundry bag. Now I have one bag that holds all my clothes. When I set up my tent, I take this bag out of my pannier and throw it into my tent. The next morning, I put the bag back into the pannier. This is extremely convenient. The pannier never comes inside the tent. The pannier is dirty and I like to keep the inside of my tent clean. I can't imagine groveling around inside the dark pit of an Ortlieb pannier in order to find a pair socks. If I had to do this everyday I'd get fed up very quickly.

There are not that many separate plastic bags. Clothes get a bag. Food and stove gets a bag. Repair tools get a bag. Electronics get a bag. The sleeping bag and tent do not go into bags. These two already have their own purpose made compression sacks. That's pretty much everything that I carry on tour. The other remaining small items such as toiletries, I carry inside a Carradice saddle bag.

I never carry anything outside strapped to the rack. I find 4 panniers and a saddlebag more than enough room.

You guys are using the wrong kind of plastic bags. What you want are commercial restaurant bin liners. These trash bags are designed to contain half-finished soda cups that people discard. They are engineered to never leak and are extremely durable. They are also available in transparent. There is no need for any kind of ziplock or other closure system. Just give the garbage bag a few twists, fold the twisted part down on itself, and stuff it in the pannier. This is 100% waterproof even if you thrown your pannier into a pond. Your clothes will be bone dry, guaranteed.

For the sleeping bag I use this waterproof compression sack: https://www.rei.com/product/867058/s...ssion-dry-sack

There is no need to carry a pillow. Take your clothes and stuff them into the above sleeping bag compression sack. Compress the sack to your desired firmness. There's your pillow.

indyfabz

If I have been on the road for a couple of days and have not washed my undies I do, in fact, conduct a sniff test. But it’s not like I wear a pair all day and/or while I sleep, so they usually get a passing grade. And often there is no one around to smell me.

When I have to carry food, it’s usually protected by packaging or a bag that I later use for trash. And I don’t carry much in the way of tools. My spoke wrench, multi-tool and patch kit go in the CamelBak pocket. The tire levers are in the seat post bag. Pump in the left, front pannier. Stove and cook set have their own stuff sacks. Fuel bottle gets a shopping bag around it. French press is naked. Knife, spork, nesting, collapsible bowl and cup and small cutting board inside the “sleeve” of my right front pannier.

RB1-luvr

my 520 this past weekend with new RockBros (Ortlieb copies) on the back, early 80's nylon panniers on the front, and stuff on top of the rear rack in a garbage bag. I got all the bases covered. Oh, and that bag on top of the front rack was $9.99 on Amazon (waterproof with a clear top sleeve for phone or map).

cyccommute 

I do kind of agree with you on this one.

I carry clothes as sets in ziplocks or in small individual stuff sacks. With ziplocks, I can see into the bag to see what has been used and what hasn’t. Stuff sacks are a bit more problematic and are either color coded or have numbered tags on them. Stuff sacks are easier to use with bikepacking bags because of the shape of the bag.

Food or food prep gear never goes in a bag anywhere close to clothing whether I’m using panniers or bikepacking gear. Nor do panniers go in a tent with me especially food bags. I live in bear country and don’t need midnight visitations.

Here’s where we differ. I would never put a tent inside a pannier. First most of the tents I’ve owned wouldn’t fit. They usually have 19” sections to the tent poles and won’t fit in any bag I’ve ever used. But that’s not the main issue I have with carrying tents inside panniers. Tents can be very wet in a morning due to dew or perhaps rain. A wet tent in a water proof bag will quickly lead to a mildewed bag. A wet tent isn’t likely to completely dry if carried on a rack but at least the moisture isn’t trapped inside a water proof sack. My sleeping bag is carried in its own waterproof bag outside the pannier because it doesn’t need to be carried in the bag where it takes up room.



I really doubt you are going to be able to find a commercial bin liner in any size much smaller than 33 gallons (125L) which is, roughly 5 times larger than bag they would have to go into. They are about 125 times larger than what I need for carrying a set of clothes. Seems like overkill.

Been there. Done that. Got the crick in the neck to prove it. This pillow is relatively cheap, very light, and packs down to an extremely small size. It goes in the stuff sack with the sleeping bag along with my sleeping pad. I’m already sleeping on the ground, I don’t need to make the experience less comfortable.

Yan 

In bear areas I use this thing which holds both the food and the stove. It's functionally identical to a plastic bag for organization purposes, just bear proof. Keeps everything neatly together.
https://www.rei.com/product/768902/b...-bear-canister

I use this tent, whose poles fit inside an Ortlieb pannier. The tent is in a very tight stuff sack so it's never going to dry regardless of where it's carried. Sometimes I take it out just to dry it.
https://www.rei.com/product/141933/m...ubba-nx-2-tent

The main thing you're looking for is the plastic thickness. Anything thicker than 1.2 mil is fine. The cheap household bags are only 0.3 to 0.7 mil thick. The best commercial bin liners are 2 mil. You could cut down a 55 gallon commercial bin liner, or if you don't want to cut, you could try this 8 gallon bag which is 1.5 mil thick. Only $15 for 60 bags. On the same page there's another another option for 4 gallon 1.2 mil. For reference Ortlieb rear panniers are 5 gallons.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BJKZ9DTT...ding=UTF8&th=1

I've also had good success with those very thick plastic shopping bags that you get from high end luxury clothing stores. But nowadays with the movement against plastic waste, thick plastic shopping bags are getting hard to find.

veloz

Trash compactor bags are substantially heavier than any trash bag. Usually 15 gal and 2.5 mil thick. They hold up really well and are easy to find in big box stores. They’re great for lining nylon panniers as well as backpacks.
I’ve owned several set of panniers since the 1980’s and Ortlieb rollers are my choice for keeping water out and easy on/off.

cyccommute 

The issue is less about how food is stored and more about keeping any foodstuffs away from items that go into a tent. I also don’t see how you can put that in a pannier and have room for much else in there.

Along with the bear canister? I suppose you can pack your sleeping bag around it and the bear canister in the other pannier but, again, the problem is a wet tent in with a dry sleeping bag. Not a combination that results in a comfortable night’s rest.

The point of the plastic bags is for organization. A single garbage bag that holds the same volume as a single pannier (or more) makes for a lot of plastic that is unneeded. Ziplock bags are 1.5mil thickness and come in far more convenient 1gallon volume that will easily hold a pair of shorts, a jersey, socks and gloves. If you tried to pack the same stuff into a 5 or 8 gallon garbage bag, you have a whole lot of plastic left over that you need to deal with when you go to get your day’s clothing.

tcs

Pushing-your-bike-uphill pro tip: removable pedals.

Atlas Shrugged

Waterproof panniers (Ortlieb) and ultralight packing cubes is my preferred approach. The idea of rummaging through a garbage bag is just not for me.

gauvins

I have transitioned to an alternative system that seems to be working well. Two x 5.5L Ortlieb fork packs (think half sized front panniers attached to the fork). One fits all of my clothing but for the rain shell, the other holds cooking, toiletries, tools and odds and ends. Two x5L dry bags lashed to a Tubus cargo rack with voile straps. One for sleeping bag and liner, one for the tent. On top of the track I lash an MLD core 25L, essentially empty but for sleeping pad, trekking poles and umbrella and rain shell.

Very very easy to carry. Certainly easier than 2 front rollers.
​​

garryg

Before my last tour my wife helped me pack and put everything in freezer bags. Worked well for me.

storckm

You might also think seriously about fenders and generator lights.

Yan 

Not sure what you mean by the first sentence. You've never used one of these? The bear canister is a self contained unit. Your food goes inside the canister. The canister has a lid that closes. The food never touches anything else. Each night you stash the canister in the woods some distance away from your tent. The next morning you retrieve it, hopefully without claw marks.

As for the excess empty space issue, yes it takes a lot of room. Sometimes I need to carry a lot of food and the thing is full, so this issue is irrelevant. Other times when I am carrying little food and the canister is mostly empty, I put my pot, stove, fuel bottle all inside the canister. This way there is no empty room and no pannier space is wasted.

I usually keep the bear canister in one of the front panniers. The sleeping bag and tent go inside one of the rear panniers. My sleeping bag is impervious to water even when stored next to a wet tent. As mentioned previously, I keep my sleeping bag in a waterproof compression sack.

1 gallon ziplock bags are too small for organizational purposes. My clothes on an extended tour usually take up about 2-2.5 gallons of space. Having to use multiple tiny ziplock bags defeats the purpose of organizing with bags. I need all my clothes to fit into one bag. That's how organization works. I usually use scissors to cut down garbage bags to about 4 gallon size. You're over estimating the amount of space a bunched up plastic bag takes. 2 mil means two-thousandths of an inch. Even the thickest industrial grade plastic bag takes almost no room at all when bunched up. Ziplock closures are unreliable. When there is air trapped inside a ziplock bag, any small squeeze can cause the ziplock to pop open, defeating the point of waterproofing with bags. A twisted up and then folded down garbage bag mouth will never open on its own.

cyccommute 

No, I don’t use one of those. First because it is a relatively new product and I’ve been backcountry traveling for a fairly long time. But, more importantly, I don’t know how I would carry on of those on a bicycle. The one you linked to is 8.7” wide. An Ortlieb Back-Roller Classic is only 6.7” wide. It won’t fit. And if I’m using bikepacking gear, there isn’t anywhere to put it at all. That seems to be a good thing for car camping but for any activity where you have to carry your own gear, not so much.

I carry paracord and hang my food or use bear vaults in campgrounds if there are any. Much easier than trying to find space for a 3 gallon jar.

My first sentence means that I do not…under any circumstances…carry food or cooking gear with my clothing. They are carried in completely separate bags…either front pannier for road or some other way for bikepacking…so that they never touch. The front panniers or the easily detachable bikepacking bag are what get hoisted into the trees.


You must be using a large pannier for your front pannier or using a much smaller canister. That bear canister is way too large for just about any front pannier I’ve ever run across.


No, that’s not how organization works. You are busting Indyfabz’s chops for basically putting all of his clothing in one bag. I agree that is not “organized”. Nor is cramming all of your clothes into the same bag “organization”. You have to rummage through that single bag just as much as Indyfabz would have to. I organize my clothing by day so that all I have to do is pull out one set of clothing for the next day in it’s own bag.

I thought you used Ortliebs so why do you need to further waterproof them? I use ziplocks (or small stuff sacks) strictly for organization. I don’t have to deal with any extra plastic or with cutting down garbage bags to make them fit inside a waterproof pannier without any internal pockets. They don’t need to be closed to be waterproof nor do they really need to be closed at all. They are just there to hold stuff in a single large pocket. They are, essentially, smaller pockets that are easily removable.

Nor do I have to deal with deciding which clothing is clean or dirty. They are in their own numbered bag or in bags I can see into and it’s not hard to keep track.

indyfabz

A collection of 2 undies, one tee, one pair of warm socks, one pair of convertible pants some sort of warm pullover, bottom base layer and hat (if if might get cold) in the right rear with my sleeping bag organizes itself through paucity. It doesn’t need separate bags. I can locate what I want to put on by feel alone.

Yan 

New product? You must not have been paying attention because these things have been around since at least the 1980s. The brand I use, BearVault, has been making canisters for over 20 years. Hanging food has been obsolete for many years and in fact is now illegal in many places in the US. The following parks require canisters as MANDATORY. Getting caught hanging food will get you a heavy fine and a prompt escort out of the park. You claim to be an outdoor person, but have you actually gone outdoors in the last 15 years? Or do you only ever engage in armchair typing? The world wonders.

Popular US parks where hanging food is illegal and bear canisters are mandatory:

• Yosemite National Park
• Sequoia/Kings Canyon National Parks
• Grand Teton National Park
• Rocky Mountain National Park
• North Cascades National Park
• Olympic National Park
• Denali National Park
• Glacier Bay National Park
• Gates of the Arctic National Park
• Inyo National Forest, eastern and central Sierra Nevada, California
• Eastern High Peaks Wilderness Area, Adirondack Mountains, New York

God damn you're ******** obnoxious. I'm the one who uses these things. You, by your own admission, have never handled one of them; yet for some reason you have enough ego to come around claiming what is possible or impossible, in "any front pannier you've ever come across". Here's a freaking picture of my canister in my Arkel front pannier. Gee, I wonder how I was able to tour all these years, and how I was able to create this magical picture, since Cyccommute has already decreed that it is impossible. Please sit down now and try to work on reducing the size of your head.

For anyone else who wishes to tour through the yearly increasing parts of the US where camping without a bear canister is illegal: these canisters come in varying sizes. If you are not big on cooking like me, you can get a smaller one that only holds one to two days of provisions. Don't forget to put all your other aromatics inside too, like your toothpaste and personal hygiene products.

indyfabz

You may use lockers in Yosemite campgrounds as long as you’re not backpacking, presumably in the backcountry.

https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bears.htm

staehpj1

FWIW, my BV450 (8.7" X 8.6") will probably fit in most panniers and if not it's little brother the BV425 (8.7" X 6") most likely will. Given that we can restock food often when road touring I find that we don't need to carry a lot of food. So if I were to use a canister on tour the 450 or even the 425 would suffice for a road tour.

That said the notion that touring without a canister is illegal anywhere. I have toured through quite a few of the national parks that require a canister for backcountry camping and did not use a canister for touring. It was quite legal since there were bear lockers in all the campgrounds and dispersed camping would have been illegal other than backcountry camping with a permit. When I backpack in these parks I use my canister, when I tour I use the provided lockers.

I did run into minor issues in a couple places where a state or other park said to put food and scented items "in the trunk of your vehicle". There always was some solution like in a state park outside Yosemite where we were able to make friends with a neighbor from a nearby campsite who let us put our stuff in their car trunk.

Where there aren't specific rules against it I hang food in areas with bear risks. I have a lot of experience camping in bear country touring, backpacking, and canoeing and have't had bears get into my stuff yet. Raccoons yes, bears no.

Tourist in MSN

Those of us that rarely camp in your specific list of parks often hang food and have no difficulty doing so. I have never been in any of the parks on your list.

Some places require either hanging or an approved container. Some only recommend it.

I got an Ursack a few years ago for those times when I can't find a good place to hang food. It is a Kevlar sack that a bear can't get into. I put a drybag in it to reduce food odor. Yes, a bear can crush your food but they are not trained to look for them in a campsite since it is only frustration to them.



Eighth inch cord works fine for me for hanging food when there are appropriate trees with branches in the right place, although I add a second line and a pulley wheel for convenience. Since I had the Ursack along, I hung that too.



More hardware and heavier lines are needed if you have tens of pounds of food to protect.







This thread got pretty far off topic. Sorry for contributing to it, but I hate to see mis-information posted that others might take as fact. Hanging food to protect against bears is not uncommon.

staehpj1

I'll add that I have toured through a number of them and always had a bear locker available to use in all campgrounds and also in other places in the parks. I remember using a locker while visiting some attractions including exhibits, restaurants, stores, and hikes. In some other cases I took my food with me on hikes or whatever. I can't say for sure that is the case for every one of those parks but I suspect it is.

Additionally you could rent a canister while you were in the park in at least some cases, So if you were going to do some backpacking during your tour there was that option. They were the full size garcia ones (8.8" x 12") if I remember correctly.

I'd agree with that. Id say that using a bear canister while touring is relatively uncommon. I know that I have rarely ever seen another tourist who was carrying one. I did meet one guy on the TA. I might consider an Ursack myself depending on the trip location, but have never sprung for one. The weight/cost/utiliy calculus never quite swayed me. If the National Parks okayed them where they require canisters I'd have bought one by now.

cyccommute 

From the National Park Service website

To pick on example, this is what the Rocky Mountain Park has to say about bear canisters. As no one can travel backcountry on a bicycle in Rocky Mountain National Park, it’s not a regulation that applies to bicycle touring. For campgrounds where bicycles are allowed to travel, this is what Rocky Mountain says

Okay, so you can get one in a pannier. I was wrong (not something you ever say). Is that the 11 liter one you linked to or a smaller one? Either way, that would be impossible to carry with bikepacking gear. None of the bags available has anywhere near that kind of volume. As I do more backcountry riding with bikepacking gear, I go with what I can use which means either bear lockers if they are available or hanging if they aren’t. Above timberline, I store my food away from the campsite.

Tourist in MSN

I was just on a bike tour, got home a few days ago. Just realized I had one photo of an Ursack in our camp. There were no bears that we knew of in the area, but it is also mouse, chipmunk, raccoon (etc.) proof, so brought the Ursack for that reason. The Ursack is the white sack hanging from the tree above my bike. They used to be available in white or black, mine is white. Tied to a tree so a racoon can't drag it away from camp.



Some things are worth protecting from critters that want our food.

Tourist in MSN

Back to the topic of panniers, I just got home from a short bike tour, unloading my last pannier today.



I always put my lightest stuff like clothes and sleeping bag in the top of a pannier, as these items are lower density than a lot of other stuff, that moves the center of gravity downward a bit. And I use a Granite Gear compression sack for that. I have two of the M size (18 liter, but liter volume is meaningless for a compression sack), different colors so I can remember what is in which one.
https://www.granitegear.com/outdoor/...n-drysack.html

Here it is in the top of my pannier, above everything else. It is a semi-rectangular shape, I have the shortest dimension of the sack oriented to fit in the width of the pannier.



Sometimes if I have less stuff in it and compress it shorter than the length of the pannier, I shove something into the pannier on the end of the compression sack to take up that space.

That sack probably was almost half of the actual volume of my pannier, you can get a sense of volumes in next two photos. The Backrollers are rated at 40 liter for the pair, or 20 each. Thus, I probably had a hair under 10 liters in the compression sack.





I have no connection to Granite Gear or Ortlieb. I am simply commenting on how well these two items work together.

For over a decade I have been using a compression sack in the top of each rear pannier, but the previous round ones I used did not pack as well as the Granite Gear which is like a bulged rectangular shape instead of round.

Packing cubes were mentioned above, I use several packing cubes to keep my various clothing better organized.