palladio

After twenty years away, I got back into cycling last year when I injured my back and couldn't run anymore. My first purchase was a used Specialized S-Works cyclocross bike with an aluminum frame and Shimano Ultegra. I never really liked this bike - harsh riding and just not fun. Plus it's just ugly to my eyes. I ended up buying a used Soma Rush fixed gear bike with a steel frame and loved it. So much so that I rode fixed all year and built up a vintage Colnago fixed gear bike which is much nicer than the Soma. Then I decided I wanted gears for longer rides and built up another vintage Colnago on the cheap off of Ebay and CL. Maybe it's because my formative years were in the eighties, but I have a soft spot for the look and feel of steel bikes from that era.

After some time on my 1980 Colnago road bike, I have to admit I'm struggling with the friction downtube shifters. I am constantly missing shifts and don't like having to look down while riding in traffic. I considered switching the bike to indexed, but it's going to cost too much and I kind of hate to give in anyway.

So, can anyone here give me pointers or tell me a good resource to learn more about how to improve my shifting technique? What's the best way to shift while under load or going uphill? Should I be able to switch front and rear at the same time if I practice my technique? I am constantly having to fiddle with it so my front derailleur isn't making rubbing noises. Even worse, I am tired of getting passed by guys on modern bikes when I miss shifts going uphill. It's embarrassing and frustrating. I am hoping that I can keep my vintage set up if I can only learn how to work with it better than I am now. Any help from the vintage experts would be greatly appreciated.

Ronsonic 

"So, can anyone here give me pointers or tell me a good resource to learn more about how to improve my shifting technique? What's the best way to shift while under load or going uphill? Should I be able to switch front and rear at the same time if I practice my technique? I am constantly having to fiddle with it so my front derailleur isn't making rubbing noises. Even worse, I am tired of getting passed by guys on modern bikes when I miss shifts going uphill. It's embarrassing and frustrating. I am hoping that I can keep my vintage set up if I can only learn how to work with it better than I am now."

Don't wait to shift, you need to be able to soft pedal at least one stroke to get a clean shift. Half a stroke even, but if you're leaning on the pedals it won't shift cleanly. If the situation is dire, stand for a couple of turns and get a little momentum to make the downshift possible.

Front and rear can be shifted at the same time, it is slightly more than twice as tricky. With a front double the front shift can be nearly indexed if everything is adjusted well. Depending on how well the bike is set up you may need to overshift a little to get the chain onto the next cog and then trim it back to centered on that cog.

Trimming the front der for different cogs on the back is pretty normal, but I'm suspecting a setup issue if it's a constant thing. Avoid getting yourself cross chained. If you're in the small-small combination, nothing good can come of it. It's always easier to go to a smaller cog or chainwheel than to go to a larger so if you're grinding up a hill in the small-small it's like being stranded.

mkeller234

+1, shift down before you start up the hills.

After that just practice, practice, practice. You will find that you don't need to look down for the shifter in time. You get used to the location and you can shift without looking.

palladio

Thanks for the advice, but it's still a bit Greek to me. Is there a book or some other resource that discusses proper technique in depth?

I get the part about shifting before I hit the hill. Still, if I'm on a long hill that varies in grade, there is a need to shift on the hill at some point to maintain the right cadence. I try to back off on the power, but it's hard to come completely off when going uphill. I'll shift to the smaller front ring before I hit the hill, but then need to work my way up the cogs in the back during a longer hill that gets progressively steeper.

Maybe I just need more practice, but are there certain rules of thumb that might be useful as a starting point?

From what I remember from twenty years ago there are a few "rules":

Shift down on the front before the hill.
Only shift up or down one cog at a time on the rear derailleur
Don't shift under full load
Don't cross gear (which I understand to mean no use of the biggest cog in the front with the smallest in the rear and vice versa)

Other than that am I missing something?

Tigerprawn

You're not alone. I just started using friction shifting, actually any type of shifting, a few months ago. It just takes practice and a keen ear I think.

I usually can tell by feel or hearing what gear I am in or just shifted to. Furthermore my shifting is really much more clean with feel and practice that I don't have to feather the shifters very often.

As for climbing... I actually just started learning maybe 2 weeks ago, but it's easier to do than to explain. I just reminded myself to shift before I get to the point where my cadence is slowing down too significantly. Helps a lot when you don't have to look down to shift. Just swipe at it and pull during your pedal stroke and you should be good.

-holiday76

you've got that kinda backwards. Cross chaining it using a big - big OR small -small combination. it gives you a bad chainline or sometimes because of chain length will cause rubbing and/or premature wear on your drivetrain. Plus it makes it harder to shift into the next gear. The same ratio would be available in another combination using the opposite chainring.

deanp

I switched my down tube levers to bar-ends, and I've found that it made the shifting easier by being to reach them more easily.

mkeller234

+1, I have a Shimano uniglide freewheel and really enjoy it. It was a giant leap ahead compared to the Atom freewheel it replaced.

palladio

That's what I meant to say, but it came out backwards. Thanks for pointing that out.

palladio

Yes, it's the "proper" Regina Extra freewheel that came with the bike from the 80's. Thanks, I was considering a Shimano freewheel but haven't tried that yet.

Who makes a "modern" ramped tooth six speed freewheel that would work on 126mm spacing? I was under the impression that everything modern would require switching out hubs.

Or if I go with an older Shimano, how do I know it's a "twist tooth" model?

Are the Mailard freewheels appreciably better than the vintage regina and/or comparable to Shimano?

palladio

Is a Shimano Dura Ace MF-7400 a "twist tooth" model (and therefore would offer improved shifting over my Regina)?

RobbieTunes

In my experience, the Shimano is smoother shifting than the Regina. I swapped a Regina out for a Shimano on a Cinelli and it was smoother, even more so when I got a Shimano chain...

For downtube shifting, anticipation is the key. Look ahead, shift aforehand, and spin into the zone you want to be in. A good way to look at is "with apprehension," i.e. shift with apprehension about any upcoming loss of momentum. That way, you stay ahead of the curve, build your ability to spin a little higher rpm's.

As an old runner, you are more susceptible to "mashing" than most riders, and it's much easier for us ex-foot pounders to get behind the curve on hills, etc. Just anticipate, though, and you'll be OK.

I'm a little confused as to building a Colnago "on the cheap" and not wanting to spend the $$ to go indexed, or even STI. A Colnago frame around here costs more than any of my bikes, all of which are upgraded to STI shifting.

Road Fan

[QUOTE=palladio;9475732]Thanks for the advice, but it's still a bit Greek to me. Is there a book or some other resource that discusses proper technique in depth?

I get the part about shifting before I hit the hill. Still, if I'm on a long hill that varies in grade, there is a need to shift on the hill at some point to maintain the right cadence. I try to back off on the power, but it's hard to come completely off when going uphill. I'll shift to the smaller front ring before I hit the hill, but then need to work my way up the cogs in the back during a longer hill that gets progressively steeper.

Maybe I just need more practice, but are there certain rules of thumb that might be useful as a starting point?

From what I remember from twenty years ago there are a few "rules":

Shift down on the front before the hill.
Only shift up or down one cog at a time on the rear derailleur
Don't shift under full load
Don't cross gear (which I understand to mean no use of the biggest cog in the front with the smallest in the rear and vice versa)

Other than that am I missing something?[/QUOTE

One thing, is overshifting. The theory in shifting is that when the derailleur is positioned under the intended destination cog, that cog will grab the edge of the chain and lift it up and off of the smaller cog. It will then settle onto the destination cog, and the cage will be in alignment with the new cog. Indexed systems were engineered to function this way, making great improvements over the older friction-based hardware. Older stuff often needs the cage to be positioned not one cog away, but perhaps 1.5 cogs away to achieve adequate chain grabbing. This positioning past the target cog is called overshifting. Experienced users get the knack of pulling the rear shift lever just a bit past where it needs to be, and then after the shift feathering it back.

One other knack is adjusting the shift lever tension so that free, smooth motion is possible but the system does not drift once you let the lever go. Overshifting and feathering require fine control, and lack of sticking friction in the lever.

The same thing might be needed shifting from a bigger cog to a smaller one.

What parts are in your drivetrain? Chainset, front/rear derailleurs, freewheel/cassette, and chain? The selection and combination affects shifting quality greatly. I've found that freewheels from Shimano and Sachs-Maillard have the best tooth designs AND are very long-wearing. Shifting with them can be as slick and precise as a well-adjusted indexed system.

Another factor is rear derailleur design. Engineer Frank Berto, formerly a monthly columnist in Bicycling (>20 years ago), researched the matter quite thoroughly and found that overshifting is minimized if the length of chain between the cog and the jockey wheel on the derailleur has an optimum length. For some derailleurs it varies greatly, especially if the spread of cog sizes is large. Others are designed to track the contour of the cog set so this gap is always near-perfect (the Huret DuoPar and Eco DuoPar). The most current design is the slant parallellogram. Here the cage moves down as it traverses from small cog to large cog, combined with the rotation of the cage. Such technologies, designed for indexing, result in friction shifting that truly rivals the slickness of indexing. It even works better when shifting under load.

Examples of slant parallellogram derailleurs include pretty much everything by Campagnolo and Shimano from the past 20 years, and SunTour derailleurs starting around 1970.

Generally front shifting is less tricky than rear. Good performance starts with correct derailleur cage orientation, both in height and rotation. Current books on bike maintenance, such as Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance, give you what you need in this area.

Some people here are better historians than I am, so I await being corrected on the dates.

palladio

If took my time and hunted around on Ebay and Craigslist. I was able to buy a really clean Colnago Super frame/fork (actually I have two now - one fixed gear and one geared) for very low prices. Parts can be found found even cheaper sometimes at swap meets. Old tubular wheelsets with freewheels can also be had cheaply because people have them lying around their garages and have no use for them in the modern indexed shifting/clincher world.

I've looked into it, and if I have to buy Campy ergo brifters, deraillers, hub/cassette to replace my current vintage Super Record stuff it's going to be expensive. These parts are more sought after by most buyers it seems, and command a premium over the older stuff. Then there's the pain of having to re-lace the rear wheel, re-space/reset the rear stays, install everything, etc. I may do it someday, but I'd like to try improving my techniqe and giving this vintage gear a chance.

FWIW, I ride in NYC and see quite a lot of bikes on the road every day. I see a good number of other vintage steel bikes in use but nearly all of them have been converted to modern shifting systems.

Road Fan

As far as freewheels that facilitiate shifting, at teh top I would place Shimano and Sachs-Maillard. Near them are some modern Shimano imitations, such as Sunrace from Taiwan. I feel the classic SunTour Winner and Winner Pro are extremely reliable and well engineered, but do not have a good tooth design. At the bottom, sadly, are the "correct" Regina, Edco, and Maillard freewheels from the '60s, '70s, and early '80s. That design was the state of the art in the '50s and was a major step forward when it came out (its advent might have been earlier), but the refinements in tooth design presented by Shimano and Sachs-Maillard were very significant.

I have a 1980 Masi, and I use a Sachs-Maillard on it with the original Campagnolo Nuovo Record shifting system, crankset, and shifters. It just works better. If I sell it, I'll pop a Regina 6-speed back on, probably a CX.

big chainring 

Dont make it more difficult than it is. Move lever, chain goes from one gear to the next. No secret techniques involved. Its basic. And dont look down at the chain or levers.

Road Fan

I sympathize completely. I have a 1980 Mondonico, and I converted it to modern indexing maybe 18 months ago. It is a great ride, but (I opted for new custom wheels) it cost around $1200, all told. Some of my parts prices were absolute rock bottom, too. Today you can get a Centaur gruppo from UK in the $700-$800 range, or buy bits and pieces on Ebay and CL as they appear. I like the new system's operation, but I wouldn't do it to another bike, at least not now.

palladio

Road Fan, thanks for the thoughtful and informative reply.

As per your question, I am running the following drivetrain:

Campy Super Record Derailleurs (I'm guessing they're from the early 80's, so last generation of the classic SR design as far as I know)
Regina Extra "America" freehweel, six speed 13-20 and Campy SR 53/42 chainrings up front
Everest/Regina "serie special" chain, with cutouts in the side plates (to reduce weight I guess). This chain seems a bit wider than the one I had previously.

John E

After 100k miles of friction shifting, I concur with the majority in this thread. Almost any rear derailleur, chain, and cogset combination can execute a satisfactory upshift, but fast and accurate downshifting to a larger cog requires at least a modicum of overshift finesse and is greatly facilitated by a flexible chain, a slant plantograph derailleur architecture, an appropriate pulley cage length, and a good tooth profile. Regina freewheels look beautiful, but I cannot recommend them for downshift performance. Likewise, older Campagnolo parallelogram rear derailleurs look much better than they work, which is why even the conservative Europeans eventually adopted the now-ubiquitous slant planograph.

Palladio, 53-42/13-20 is a pretty tall gearset, designed mainly for criterium use.
______
I hate my 1980 Regina America 13-23 6-speed freewheel. I hate my 1980 Regina America 13-23 6-speed freewheel. I hate my 1980 Regina America 13-23 6-speed freewheel.

JohnDThompson 

Some derailleurs, e.g. Campy NR/SR, require a little overshifting. And shift levers can make a significant difference. Campy friction shifters are pretty mediocre, IMO. Simplex "Retrofriction" levers are a major improvement, even if the rest of the drivetrain is Campagnolo. SunTour "Powershifters" (ratcheting) levers are a close second to the Simplex. Both turn up regularly on eBay, but command a pretty high price (~$50).

palladio

Yes, it's definitely a bit taller a ratio than I would like for longer or hilly rides.

After the advice here this morning, I went ahead and bought a NOS Shimano MF-7400 Dura Ace 6 speed freewheel geared 13-23. This will give me a little broader gear range and I hope shift better as well.

So can anyone tell me if this his has the "twist" teeth or "uniglide" design? Also, should I expect it to work well with my NOS Everest/Regina chain or do I need some sort of Shimano chain?

dbakl

Lots of good advice here. Now practice!

The Campagnolo deraillers require overshifting and trimming back in place. With experience you'll recognize the sound from the rear and know instinctively which way to trim. (the need to move higher sounds different than lower)

I was having an indexing argument with my son yesterday: he has a new, modern bike and can't understand why I don't want my shifting "easier". I feel what I'm riding is as "easy" as I've ever required... what it does require is some mindfulness. I like that.

RobbieTunes

Easy is somewhat self-defined. I knew this girl.... oops, wrong forum.

+1 on the good advice here. I have friends who can't shift without STI's, some who can't shift without indexing, and some who only want friction...

Toss Campy into the mix, and yes, things can get complicated.

dbakl

I always thought indexing was a complicated solution for a nonexistent problem, but then I started riding 10-speeds in the 60s.

Road Fan

That is one of the good Shimano cogsets. I can't imagine it not working well with your Regina. I suppose it's possible you'd be better off with a narrower chain made for 7 or 8 speed, but don't spend too much $$ on it.