no to the gas tax
#51
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Your post inspired me to check the original National Geographic article. I found that I was wrong, the "true cost" of gas is a lot more than twice the pump price. At the time of publication (June, 2004) a gallon of gas cost $1.57 (Ah the good old days--2004 ).
The true cost by NG's estimate was $4.03:
The true cost by NG's estimate was $4.03:
HIDDEN GAS COSTS = $2.46
Leaking oil from refineries = .02
Risk of macronoeconomic disruptions = .12
Global warming cost of carbon emissions = .12
Local pollution; health effect = .40
Traffic accidents = .80
Congestion, time wasted, fuel wasted = 1.00
_______________________
U.S. GAS COSTS = $1.57
State & Federal taxes (avg.) = 27%
Crude oil = 48%
Refining = 15%
Distrib. & mktg. = 10%
Aaron
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"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#52
Sophomoric Member
Nor does it count the cost of the war in Iraq. I estimate 60 % of that debacle could be chalked up to oil lust.
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#53
In the right lane
Weren't both Iraq wars 100% oil-centric? What other angle is there in having troops in Iraq besides the desire to control the world petroleum resource? So the total cost of the war should probably be covered by those who need the resource.... you need to revise those figures upward.
#54
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I was just thinking since no one wants to pay more gas taxes, how are we going to pay for our roads which are getting more and more expensive? Suppose everyone swiches to electric cars, wer're going to have major shortfalls in revenue for road maintenance and new construction. Guess where the money is going to come from? TAXES! (City, State, Local, Sales, 1040 taxes!)
#55
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slagjumper,
Couple of counter points...
Economy cars use less fuel and pay less tax...they are also much lighter by design and will not abuse and damage the roadways at nearly the same rate as a heavier vehicle (currently the auto driver subsidizes the damage caused by heavy trucks) IIRC the numbers a single 80,000# truck rolling over a given portion of roadway causes as much damage as 5,000 regular cars (at say an average weight of 5k#).
Most local roads are built and at least partially maintained by revenue generated from property taxes and in some cases sales taxes. All of which are paid by car free individuals and cyclists. So we do pay our way even if we don't own or operate a motor vehicle.
Aaron
Couple of counter points...
Economy cars use less fuel and pay less tax...they are also much lighter by design and will not abuse and damage the roadways at nearly the same rate as a heavier vehicle (currently the auto driver subsidizes the damage caused by heavy trucks) IIRC the numbers a single 80,000# truck rolling over a given portion of roadway causes as much damage as 5,000 regular cars (at say an average weight of 5k#).
Most local roads are built and at least partially maintained by revenue generated from property taxes and in some cases sales taxes. All of which are paid by car free individuals and cyclists. So we do pay our way even if we don't own or operate a motor vehicle.
Aaron
I am talking about federal and state roads that are not paid for by municipal taxes. Since these local road actually bear more traffic and damage than the interstates, it is sad that more federal and state money does not do to keep them running.
In PA the privatization issue relates to turning the PA turnpike over to a private corp. to run. Also I’ve heard of a similar plan to develop a loop around Dallas, then turn it over to a private company that will run it as a for profit toll way.
--
Here's a challenge to the no tax folks--
Asside from appeals to Adam Smith or Ain Rand why not tax fuel more, if that money would go to road imporvements not overhead?
Last edited by slagjumper; 01-28-08 at 08:03 PM.
#56
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slagjumper,
There are a couple of toll roads in the Richmond, VA area. One I am almost positive was built with private dollars and will be a toll road until the end of time. The others that are there I believe were built with local funds and are paid for and the upkeep provided by the tolls. I also know that I-95 thru Richmond was a toll road for quite a while to help to raise funds to pay for the I-295 bypass around Richmond, and now the toll booths are gone. In some cases the tolls are worthwhile and are used to maintain the roads.
I believe that the NJ turnpike is such a road. I have driven both it and the parallel I-95 and the NJTP was in a much better state of repair from what I recall. Toll roads have their place if they are properly managed and not used as a revenue grab by government.
Aaron
There are a couple of toll roads in the Richmond, VA area. One I am almost positive was built with private dollars and will be a toll road until the end of time. The others that are there I believe were built with local funds and are paid for and the upkeep provided by the tolls. I also know that I-95 thru Richmond was a toll road for quite a while to help to raise funds to pay for the I-295 bypass around Richmond, and now the toll booths are gone. In some cases the tolls are worthwhile and are used to maintain the roads.
I believe that the NJ turnpike is such a road. I have driven both it and the parallel I-95 and the NJTP was in a much better state of repair from what I recall. Toll roads have their place if they are properly managed and not used as a revenue grab by government.
Aaron
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"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
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"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#57
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I'd hate to live in a place where I had to use an expensive, short toll road frequently. As far as gas taxes go, I bet most people dont even know how much they pay in state per-gallon fuel tax.
2007 State Fuel Tax Chart
2007 State Fuel Tax Chart
#58
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I'd hate to live in a place where I had to use an expensive, short toll road frequently. As far as gas taxes go, I bet most people dont even know how much they pay in state per-gallon fuel tax.
2007 State Fuel Tax Chart
2007 State Fuel Tax Chart
Aaron
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Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#59
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slagjumper,
There are a couple of toll roads in the Richmond, VA area. One I am almost positive was built with private dollars and will be a toll road until the end of time. The others that are there I believe were built with local funds and are paid for and the upkeep provided by the tolls. I also know that I-95 thru Richmond was a toll road for quite a while to help to raise funds to pay for the I-295 bypass around Richmond, and now the toll booths are gone. In some cases the tolls are worthwhile and are used to maintain the roads.
I believe that the NJ turnpike is such a road. I have driven both it and the parallel I-95 and the NJTP was in a much better state of repair from what I recall. Toll roads have their place if they are properly managed and not used as a revenue grab by government.
Aaron
There are a couple of toll roads in the Richmond, VA area. One I am almost positive was built with private dollars and will be a toll road until the end of time. The others that are there I believe were built with local funds and are paid for and the upkeep provided by the tolls. I also know that I-95 thru Richmond was a toll road for quite a while to help to raise funds to pay for the I-295 bypass around Richmond, and now the toll booths are gone. In some cases the tolls are worthwhile and are used to maintain the roads.
I believe that the NJ turnpike is such a road. I have driven both it and the parallel I-95 and the NJTP was in a much better state of repair from what I recall. Toll roads have their place if they are properly managed and not used as a revenue grab by government.
Aaron
I believe the 195/downtown expressway tolls are gone, though I haven't been on the road in several years, despite living in RVA and riding downtown on a nearly daily basis (no bikes). They're still on the Powhite Parkway to southside, though.
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Building a road with taxpayer dollars, then giving it away still bugs the hell out of me.
If you can't afford to build it, don't. If you can't afford to maintain it, don't build it.
If a private company can't afford to buy, build, and maintain a road, that just proves the economic flaw of these highways in the first place.
Generally, you're not talking about interstates, necessary for commerce. You're usually talking about suburb-enablers. Bridges and roads that allow the people who have chosen to live in bum**** to get to work. What is our motivation for enabling these people? I'm just not seeing it.
If you can't afford to build it, don't. If you can't afford to maintain it, don't build it.
If a private company can't afford to buy, build, and maintain a road, that just proves the economic flaw of these highways in the first place.
Generally, you're not talking about interstates, necessary for commerce. You're usually talking about suburb-enablers. Bridges and roads that allow the people who have chosen to live in bum**** to get to work. What is our motivation for enabling these people? I'm just not seeing it.
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Tolls are coming folks.
Gas taxes are being rejected by Republicans and Democrates but tolls roads and selling off highways to private investors (who will build tolls) is seen as the next alternative. I still think if you tax the hell out of gas and make it very expensive (10 dollar tax) it will have the same effect as a costly toll.
Gas taxes are being rejected by Republicans and Democrates but tolls roads and selling off highways to private investors (who will build tolls) is seen as the next alternative. I still think if you tax the hell out of gas and make it very expensive (10 dollar tax) it will have the same effect as a costly toll.
If you tax the gas, every commuter will pay the "toll" so to speak. And SUVs will be hit more than the Toyota Prius, so it encourages people to drive more fuel-efficient cars. Also, toll roads have higher maintenance and initial setup costs than "free" roads. Not so much with a gas tax.
I traveled over 2 bridges and 1 tunnel and paid close to $18.00 dollars in tolls and $10.00 dollars in gas for a three hour ride last weekend. It was the first time I've driven in close to a year but I was amazed at how expensive motoring has become. More reason to become car free.