coleary00

Hi All,


Relatively new to the forum. Has asked for some advice in other threads, but thought this was a good place to start for a few vintage bike value-related questions. I am helping a widow liquidate some of her late husband's vintage bike collection. I am slowly going to sell them and recently listed an old Cinelli Super Corsa. I thought I would start with this Schwinn Paramount next. Seems to be all original Campagnolo Components, and everything is in good condition. Any insight into the value, year, model, etc. is appreciated! Thank you!

Ps - won't let me add photos since I have posted less than 10x on the forum, any insight into how to get photos of the bike up?

coleary00

bikemig 

You did a great job of photographing this bike. This bike is beautiful.

In thinking about price, you will have to consider whether you are willing to sell via eBay or not. You will likely get your top price via eBay but there are issues and costs involved which may be a good reason to sell locally via craigslist or facebook. You will very likely have to accept a lower price if selling locally but there are no fees, no shipping, etc. Also where you live matters. It is easier to get a high price in a large city rather than a smaller one.

eBay is not a bad place to look at in determining value but you need to look at sold listings. Also condition matters so this bike is likely to command near the top of the valuation range given the condition.

What is the year of the bike? Looks like early 70s (that is a long reach on those centerpulls) but I'm not a Paramount expert. The serial no. will give you the year.

What is the size? These are 27 inch wheels, right?

I live in a mid sized city in the Midwest. Paramounts don't pop up often but I've seen them move for under $1k but likely not as nice a condition as this.

trainman999

Bike appears to be a 71-73 P10 if the paint and decals are original. The serial is on the left rear droup out should be a letter followed by 4 or 5 numbers. the letter is the month the next two numbers are the year, the last 2 or 3 numbers are the number of the frame within the month. Do you know if repaint or original? $700-900 if repaint $1200+ if original paint and componets

3alarmer 

.
...to me, that appears to be repainted. But it's a quality repaint, and I disagree about how much it affects value. Something that clean in a 70's Paramount, in that popular size frame, in good mechanical condition, would list for about $1000 on the local CL here in the Bay Area. That vintage Paramount, in that condition, used to sell pretty quickly at that price here back before the pandemic. They showed up more regularly then.

If it was repainted by Waterford, the repaint probably makes it worth more.

TugaDude

A Waterford repaint would be at least $900.00 on its own. That's $800.00 for the paint, $100.00 for the decals. I doubt it covers clear over the decals.

TakingMyTime

I'm no expert but I would bet that it's a repaint. The decals are just to vibrant. Regardless, if that showed up anywhere close to me here in So Cal I would not hesitate paying $1200 for it. Those older Paramount's really really tug at my heartstrings..

tendency

They charge $800 to repaint a bike?! PLUS decals and PLUS clear? Obscene.

3alarmer 

...I think you would have a different opinion if you had ever stripped, painted, and re-stickered a bicycle frame. It's very labor intensive, and requires a certain skill level, to do an excellent job like that one.

tendency

I have actually - many times

bikemig 

You likely can find a single color wet paint job for less but that is likely the going rate from a great many quality painters.

3alarmer 

...how many man hours did it take you, do you guess ? I have a couple of strip and repaints here, that I did myself, that took me probably 40-50 hours, on and off, over the course of a week or sometimes two. Are you fussy about your results ? I would value my work on those at about the neighborhood of 800 bucks, more or less: 40 hours at 20 bucks an hour is 800 bucks. The right decals cost me another 50 bucks on top of the paint costs...and I use generic primers. Urethane clear over everything is another 20 bucks in material costs.

You can certainly paint quicker and cheaper. It won't turn out looking like the bike we're talking about.

tendency

Yes, I'm very fussy about my results or else I'd just take frames and have the powder coated (though I'm personally not a fan of the powder coat look).

Keep in mind that the guys/gals at Waterford are professional painters; they probably have a team where that's just about all they do. As such, they get very good at it and can paint a bike in a fraction of the time it would take you or me. And they have a professional spraying room setup which gives much cleaner more consistent results resulting in far less finish work, professional equipment. Etc. etc.

For me I take my frames to a local sandblasting firm so I have a perfect 'canvas' to start with. Then I spray with an etching primer immediately upon getting the frame home then a layer of white primer 24 hours later as I find this makes the colors pop. Figure 3 cans of primer, 3-4 cans of laquer (I always use duplicolor) then a couple cans of clear. Plus decals.

$60 to sandblast the frame then another $70 for paint or so and the cost of decals. I've gotten significantly faster at painting; I'd guess it takes me about 8-12 hours to fully finish a frame depending on how much wet sanding the primer/paint needs and then a full frame polish once the laquer has cured. Starting from bare sandblasted frame that'll produce results that are very hard to tell were not done professionally. It takes alot of practice however I enjoy it.

Wileyone 

9 cans of paint for $70. Where do you buy your paint?

tendency

Dupli Color is pricey .. about $10-12 per can. It may be closer to $60 that I spend give or take.

TugaDude

I didn't mean to open a can of worms with my post, just to point out that IF the bike in question was restored by Waterford, that would have been the minimum cost.

Remember too that a business has to generate a profit. They also have overhead to consider. The worker is also probably a full-time employee and I'll bet that Waterford offers health insurance and other benefits. Those don't come free.

Equipment is another consideration. Companies that spray on a regular basis need to invest in protective equipment including booths and such. Then there is the spray equipment itself. It doesn't last forever.

On a related note, not to bikes but to business, I've been in the construction chemicals business for more than 30 years and the contractors I've seen struggle the most are the ones that sell their work too cheaply. So cheap that when a ladder breaks and a mixer is down, they don't have the wherewithal to manage. Some never come to grips with what it takes to survive much less thrive.

If you do the work yourself, then most of the above can be ignored.

tendency

Good points for sure thanks. Still, there's a couple pro painters around here who will do a full bike, decals and clear for ~$500 - and it's a very nice spray so I personally would have a hard time justifying $1G for Waterford .. unless my bike was worth $3K+ (and even then..) Of course these guys don't have the overhead of a shop like Waterford as you pointed out.

Wileyone 

Your math skills are much different than mine

3alarmer 

...the masking of all the chrome on that Paramount alone would probably take me four or five hours. Which would also need to be done prior to sandblasting. There is no way on god's green earth I could paint that paramount in 8-12 hours. If you're not clear finishing with a urethane paint in 2021, then I would suggest you are not as fussy about your results as am I. Yes, if all I want to do to a bicycle is to blast, prime, color coat, decal, and clear a bike, I can do it in a couple of days. I can look at that Paramount and immediately tell you there's a lot of detail work there that might not be obvious to you, if all you do is blast, prime, paint and decal. Just removing and reinstalling the headbadge is a n hour, maybe less if everything goes OK.

The idea that they are professional painters, thus can do things more quickly than I, does not make me assume they work cheaply. If anything, it means that their time is more valuable than is my own. My painting effforts don't pay my rent, or buy my food.

tendency

Oh I agree with you - I'm not talking about 8-12 hours to paint that Paramount that figure is in reference to a basic steel bike repaint with basic decaling - say like a 1980s Trek.

Circling back around to what started this conversation: is it worth it spending $1K (or more: https://joebell.net/Joe-Bell-Price-List.html) to paint a_bike? For me, no. I get people have different values and disposable income. But, what is the Paramount (wow we really hijacked this thread!) at the top of this thread worth? $2K? $3K? It's simply not worth it - to me - to spend 1/3 to 1/2 of an objects value on paint. I know people that will spend $5-$8K on a showroom quality car re-spray but that's for a vehicle worth $50K+. A bike? I could never justify it.

But, sure is fun to do as a hobby

3alarmer 

...If anyone thinks he's doing it to increase the resale value of a classic bicycle, there will probably be some disappointment at the end of the process. Joe Bell got me the replacement decals for my Richard Sachs, and he's apparently the only guy Richard Sachs used to paint his frames. Is a lot of the money spent on stuff like this a good investment ? Probably not in terms of return. I enjoy riding the Sachs, but I would probably also enjoy it without the correct restoration decals.

I only mentioned it in passing, in the first place, because I see the comment about repainting lowering the value of a bike, and I personally do not get that idea. I think maybe it derives from some idea that all repaints are the same, in terms of quality. You hear "It's only original once" tossed around a lot. It's usually some guy trying to justify living with "patina".

Anyway...in terms of value and sales price, I can see that yellow Paramount as a $2000 ask on Ebay. But unless you're prepared to deal with all the hassles involved in the Ebay process, probly $1000-$1200 for a local sale here in NorCal.

bikingshearer 

Re serial numbers - Agreed, the serial number should be stamped into the left dropout and should be obvious. As noted it should start with a letter, A though M corresponding to the month it was logged (with "I" not used). There could be anywhere from three to five numbers following. If there are three numbers, it is from the 1960s and the first number would be the year ("6" = 1966, "7"=1967, etc.) and the last two digits would the number of the frame for that month. For example, mine is F711 - the 11th frame logged in June 1967. But if there are four or five digits, the frame is from the 1970s and the first two numbers should be "7x", meaning the frame was built in 197x. The two or three digits after that are the number of that frame for that month. So, for example, B73107 would the 107th frame logged in February 1973 and L7435 would be the 35th frame logged in November 1974.

I agree it is likely a (nicely done) respray. I believe (but could be wrong) that a yellow Paramount of that era would have originally come with red pin striping around the lugs (a mm or two from the side of the lug, not right in the crease where the lug joins the frame tube), and there is none to be seen here. Also, my 1967 was that color when I received it (hence my hazy recollection about the pin striping - I had the frame repainted 15 years or more ago). The down tube decal was a sheet, not individual letters and the clear part around the letters had discolored somewhat. Not enough to detract, but definitely enough to notice. I don't see any of that on this one, which I take as another sign of a likely respray.

Someone mentioned checking eBay for pricing info. This is good advice. Look up Schwinn Paramounts and look at the "sold" listings to see what people are actually paying as opposed to the sometimes idiotic amounts people list things for.. In the "sold" listings, look at frames or bikes of a similar vintage and check the photos to compare their condition with this one.

SoccerBallXan

You will be able to fetch between $1-2.5K depending on how you settle and where. Personally, I am seeing 1K worth of f/f and $5/600 of parts if I’m drooling for it. Another $500+ if selling on eBay to the right buyer.

Unfortunate news for the family, I wish all well. It seems the late enthusiast had an excellent taste for vintage.