Pat

The people at my LBS know me. They know that if I come in and "try things on" that I will buy it if it fits properly. I think if shops had such a fee, they would waive it if nothing fit or the person bought stuff that did.

As for the sales tax, the State of FL does not collect sales tax from on line retailers like Amazon. Supposedly the individual is supposed to keep track of the sales tax and dutifully send it in to the state. The shortfall comes to a pretty large amount. It also costs local jobs because it puts the bricks and morter people in the hole starting out because they have to collect sales tax and as such are at a competitive disadvantage.

jackb

The social and commercial position of retailers needs to be reassessed. A merchant wants people to come into his/her store in the hopes that people will buy things. That's why so many stores run sales on some items, the idea being that once you are in the store you might buy something that isn't on sale. This is the Walmart strategy used by large and small retailers. the merchant has goods on display that he/she wants me to buy, whether I need or want them. The sale is the important thing. How many of us have been thrown a sales pitch for some goods or services that we did not want or need. The merchant wants to sell as much stuff as he/she can because that's how money is made. But I am the potential customer. When i walk into a retail outlet I am not obligated to buy anything even if I try on everything in the store that can be tried on. If the merchant wants me to buy something, then that item needs to be offered at a price that I am willing to pay. How many of us have been in the various "boutique" variety of outdoor gear stores where all the items are offered for msrp, which in many cases is very expensive and quite often not worth the price of the item. Look at a Patagonia item, for example, and then some item that competes with it. Patagonia is interested in making as much profit as it can off its offerings. the merchant who sells them is generally in the same position. As the potential buyer, I am in an analogous position. I'm trying to save as much money as I can. There is nothing wrong with the merchant trying to maximize profits as there is nothing wrong with me trying to save money. This is the economic system we live in. I buy lots of bike and other outdoor gear in local shops, but the price has to be right. I've bough all my bikes but one in my local LBS, but the shop owner was willing to talk with me and offer me a reduction in price that he could live with and that I determined was fair. Who would pay more than they have to just to see the merchant make his profit? Rather than make his desired profit from me, he could just as easily reduce the price a little to suit me. I see no obligation for the customer to come up to the merchant's price. The merchant could just as easily come down a little in price or offer some service that would make the higher price more palatable. Why is the merchant's profit margin sacred? Although all this sounds a bit like an antagonistic relationship, it really isn't. It's just the way we do business in this country. In many other countries people bargain regularly for goods and services. There's nothing wrong with compromises on both the seller's or buyer's parts. Charging a "fitting fee" seems to me to be a little vindictive towards the buyer, who is under no obligation to buy anything to under our current commercial system. I would think that sellers would encourage people to try things on in the hopes that they might like something and wind up buying it even if they had no intention of doing so when they came into the store.

By the way, I personally know the owners of three retail businesses, two cycle shops and one outdoor gear and clothing shop, and these folks live very comfortable lives that suggest that they make plenty of money. I have no problem with that, and i patronize their shops when they sell things I want at prices that I am willing to pay.

JamieElenbaas

You guys cannot be serious.

The LBS provides a facility that you can physically walk into where they provide a selection of cycling shoes that you can touch, see and try on. They also provide expert staff to help you choose the correct shoe. Because of all of the things they provide, they have overhead that the on line guys do not. They MUST charge more than an on line retailer to pay for all of this. Add in the un collected sales tax on on line purchases and they are always going to be more expensive.

How on earth can you blame the LBS (or ski shop, or whatever) for discouraging people from walking in, using all of their costly facility, inventory and staff and then buying the item elsewhere? If you want to try on those Sidis and then buy them elsewhere, you'd better be prepared to pay for the privilege.

Hermes

Most retail transactions go well and the price, terms and conditions are standard and transparent. However, there are a few cases where the seller changes the deal at time of payment. At that point and depending on the reasons for the discrepancy, I may elect to shop somewhere else independent on how much each party has invested in the transaction. Remember, I have a lot of time invested as well as the merchant and desire a fair and successful transaction. If I sense a bait and switch play or lack of transparency in the transaction, I am out of there. And in fact, I may elect to shop somewhere else and pay a higher price. So I stand by *probably*.

billydonn

Most of the stuff I really want/like is not on the shelf at the LBS, so this isn't a real big issue for me. I would not feel good about using the LBS as a try-on station and then buying somewhere else though. If they had a good selection of Sidis, for example, I would not mind paying extra to buy them locally.

As much as possible I try to buy routine stuff at the favored LBS.

stapfam

Shoes-along with all forms of clothing-are items that I will try before I buy. My LBS does not carry much clothing but their shoe selection is good. When I last bought shoes from them it must have taken about 1 hour for me utilising their time before I decided. And helmets take longer.

It does depend on the LBS but locally there are a couple of "Chain" bike shops where I will not feel any compulsion to buy from. I may look at or try on various items but I doubt that I would buy from them unless the item was at a very much discounted price and the item was 100% what I want.

trackhub

I would not pay a "fit fee". I agree with the opinions of some other members:

-Companies like Nashbar already have very reasonable return policies in place.

-It sounds like a great method and means to drive customers out the door.

Phil85207

No!

Kurt Erlenbach

About ten years ago I went to a small shop in Daytona Beach to buy ballet shoes for my girls. It was the only shop for miles around that sold pointe shoes, and we were there for a good hour, and I spent a good amount of money. There was a sign on the wall providing notice of a $25 fitting fee. I asked why, and the owner told me that she had recently spent two hours fitting several children in a family, staying past closing time to do so, and then the woman bought nothing - she only wanted to get the correct size so she could order online. I fully understand the need for retail shops to protect themselves from those kinds of predatory practices.

Rowan

I have an experience that is happening right now that is worth relating in terms of how bricks-and-mortar retail simply isn't working smart with e-commerce.

A week ago yesterday, I ordered a pair of handlebars from a bike business about 90 minutes' drive away (so it is local in my context). The bars still have not arrived, so I sent an email to ask for the consignment number on the post, for which I had paid a premium, so I could check at the post office.

The reply I got was, sorry, but "I have had two funerals in the last couple of weeks and I am behind on everything". In addition to that, the item is not in the store, but has to come from a supplier first to the shop before it can be consigned. There is a chance the bars might be posted by the end of the week.

This is the response I have drafted (I haven't sent it yet, and will mull it over for 24 hours):

This is the second time I have tried to deal with you via Cyclelink. The excuse for a six-week delay to an inquiry the first time was your Kokoda Trail trip. Now this.

I and my wife like your store in (location). When we get to Melbourne, I buy my spokes exclusively from there, and more often than not, my wife buys apparel while we are there.

But your (internet) effort leaves a lot to be desired, especially when lining up prices and *service* from overseas and local suppliers. As an example of you eBay competition, too, I ordered more than $140 worth of bike parts from an Australian vendor last night. I paid with PayPal, and the order was processed and sent by lunchtime today. Based on my previous experience with this vendor, the parcel will be here on Friday.
I thought I would give (the internet site) a go this time because I thought I could have at least expected the handlebars to arrive by the end of the week of order, seeing as I paid a premium on the shipping.

My advice is... if you want to succeed in e-business, pay a lot more attention to it than you are at the moment. Right now, I am a very unhappy customer. Irrespective of your personal circumstances, surely you have staff who can handle the (internet) orders in your absence..

The delay in getting the bars has disappointed my wife in my build of her touring bike that she had intended to use at Easter. But now finalisation of the project is becoming very moot.

The point is... this shop is pretty good at its face-to-face customer service, but cannot apply the same principles to its internet business.

It's notable that the other eBay vendor to whom I refere is in another State, not just 90 minutes down the road (and before you ask, the shop closed at 6.00pm each day, and we have other commitments on weekends).

The BandM shop has more than the husband and wife on staff, so the funerals really aren't an excuse, and if they are intent on developing an internet presence, give it to someone who knows what they are doing... or stop doing it!

Oh yeah, and in before the nark -- I can be a bastid sometimes, especially when someone has my money and I haven't got anything in return for it.

maddmaxx 

I have no problems with buying on line. I do have a problem with those who take up local store time and then buy online. I don't mind a fit fee deductable from the purchase price as that seems to be a compromise on my first two sentences.

NOS88

Wasn't challenging your decision. Was simply stating what mine would be. I wouldn't spend more than five minutes with someone in a shop that I didn't feel OK about. Generally, in a new bike shop at least, I'll spend a bit of time just watching and listening to how others are treated. If a bait and switch was in the works, I'd chastise myself for not seeing it coming. But, that's all pretty much hypothetical. I'm very loyal to the handful of shops that have treated me well over the years. I think the last thing I bought in a shop not known to me was a tube while on a ride when my spare blew.

tcs

I'm going to institute an "education and training" fee for every time I (the customer) have to teach or explain something to retail shop personnel.

cranky old dude

Businesses, both brick and mortar and e-business, are in charge of their own destiny.

Case in point....three years ago I bought my wife a new bike at a local shop. The bike was in stock at the store. I also purchased some accessories for her bike, most of which were also in stock except for fenders. The shop ordered the fenders and expected them in within two weeks. I spent over $1200 in that shop that day.

Three months later and I had already driven accross town to the shop twice only to find that they had ordered the wrong fenders. The third time I checked with them (a month later) they had not gotten around to reordering them yet.

I finally sat in front of my computer and ordered the fenders on-line through another brick & mortar shop, which is 1000 miles from my home ,that I've done business with in the past. The following day (Monday) I called the far away shop to ensure they got my order and they had already processed it. I recieved the fenders on Friday and mounted them on her bike before the sun set that day.

Here's the kicker...both shops use the same wholesaler. The fenders were shipped from the wholesaler to the shop and from the shop to my home in five days.

Can you guess which shop gets my business now? I do still shop for a "Hands-on" experience at the local shop and occasionaly I even make a small token purchase there, but I have no qualms about looking at expensive merchandise at the local shop and then buying it on-line.

There are other local shops that I have much higher respect for and if I find the item of my desires at those shops, I either purchase and / or order through them. Customer's respect is not to be taken lightly. Once you've lost it you will most likely never regain it.

BluesDawg

tpelle

Personally, I would never pay a fee to try on clothing (Especially go-commando bike shorts!), nor would I ever try them on in the store, for that matter. I figure I just buy the size that I know fits!

I would pay a fee for a bike fitting, as long as it was refunded as part of the purchase price of the bike that I then bought. However, if the "fitting" consisted of a quick approximation of my seat height so that I could test ride, then no, I would not pay for that.

oilman_15106

After 40 replies it is obvious to me why most LBS's stock few clothes and shoes, at least in my area. It is not profitable to do so.

akohekohe

+1

unterhausen

that's pretty much independent of people trying them on and buying elsewhere though. To be successful at retail clothing sales, you have to have a large stock and be prepared to deeply discount the stuff that doesn't sell.

gcottay

As a matter of personal ethics I am unwilling to employ time consuming expert services of a shop without paying for them either directly or as part of the markup in a purchase.

In a recent conversation among friends the subject of a particular individual's boasting came up. This person spent most of an afternoon taking advantage of a local golf shop's large club selection and computerized driving range to make a selection of new drivers, purchased them from a distant discount outlet, and proudly congratulated himself on his superior financial acumen. The group consensus was that the buyer would probably also improve his lie and shave his scorecard.

dbf73

Theoretically, I agree BUT how can the shop owner truly know if the item wasn't purchased because it didn't feel right, because the buyer wanted to think on it or because it was later purchased online?

himespau 

That's why I think charging for a bike fit makes sense but not for little stuff. For the clothes and helmets and stuff it's up the the costumer not to be an ass.

oilman_15106

They don't stock much because they are tired of no profit from folks trying there and buying elsewhere(mostly online). That would be a brilliant business plan: Bring in a huge inventory so you can sell it below cost to compete with on line sellers?

Retro Grouch 

I think that you should get used to it because I suspect that it's going to be a trend.

There was a story in the St Louis newspaper today about a Muslem woman who went with her husband to try out a mattress before buying one. The manager refused to deal with them because she was wearing Muslem dress (he was ultimately fired). The family indicated they eventually tried out mattresses in another store but bought on line. Other posters have mentioned similar incidents involving ski boots and ballet shoes.

We have a sales tax structure in the US that favors on line purchases. Consumers are going to do whatever they think is beneficial for themselves. That's the reality that local merchants have to deal with. Commerce is constantly evolving and nobody is going to provide a service over the long term with no expectation of some kind of return. Local merchants are going to have to adopt a business plan that capitalizes on that reality.

The last time that I bought tires for my car I researched on line and told a dealer exactly what I wanted. He said he would be glad to order them for me but 1. my ultimate cost would be around $40.00 more and 2. I'd have to COME IN to put down a deposit. He seemed happy to have the on-line purchased tires delivered to him and charge me for installation. That's what I did.

I can envision a local retail business model developing in which service is the primary revenue stream and product sales are relagated to sideline status. A tire store with no tires, a mattress store that doesn't have any mattresses? Maybe. If it's a product that you're going to have to pay to have delivered anyway, why not?

Rowan

This is how car dealerships have been operating for many years with their service centres. It was recognised even when I was a motoring writer back in the 1980s, that it was cheaper for a car company to inventory their stock in one big, centralised warehouse, then get the dealerships to order (by phone or fax in those days) and have the items shipped... than for the dealers to retain anything but a basic inventory on high-turnover parts.

It became increasingly frustrating waiting for purchased items to arrive. The slack attitude towards customer satisfaction started then -- "it will arrive when it arrives... it's out of our hands... blame the shipping company..." I had a recent experience where a company car was booked in for bodywork repairs, but then was told on the day that the part had only just arrived and hadn't been painted yet.

Then there is the "false advertising" that retailers engage in as a hook to get customers into their stores. The stuff like promoting that a certain item is in stock, only to find that it isn't because it has to be ordered in. This happened the other day when we went to buy a new washing machine. Little signs up saying "Out of Stock, Can Be Ordered". Well, we're from the country, we can't be going back and forth every weekend at the retailer's behest...

If people aren't able to get "instant graitification" with their purchases from BandM retailers, then naturally, they will resort to on-line sales, because they are only doing what the stores do -- ordering and waiting. But as I said earlier, it's no different to purchasing from a paper catalogue by mail in the old days -- I am not sure I can remember too much bleating from the retailers down the street in those days.

Again, the Australian research showed that a very small (miniscule) number of BandM retailers had developed e-stores, and those that had an internet presence had sites that were (a) almost impossible to navigate because some "guru" kid reckoned glitz was worth more than substance (and bike sites are notorious for this) (b) had no price advantage over shopping in person and (c) didn't have inventory listed anyway to enable purchases.

And there is one other player group in this -- the middlemen, the wholesalers. They are the ones who control the market prices charged by the retailers. Effectively, people ordering on the internet are cutting out the middlemen.

And an update on my little episode with the on-line bike shop. I did send the email (nasty bastid I am) and got a reply that really didn't resolve anything except to tell me another set of excuses and that instead of last Friday, the handlebars would now arrive in shop on Monday and would be sent overnight. I am not holding my breath for them to arrive before Easter.