Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

What is my sealed bottom bracket? NOT shimano

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

What is my sealed bottom bracket? NOT shimano

Old 10-22-20, 10:59 AM
  #1  
Nubra 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Nubra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 204

Bikes: Miyata six-ten, Miyata Grand Touring, Univega Sport Tour, Univega Gran Turismo, 80's Trek MTB, 2008 Dahon Mariner

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
What is my sealed bottom bracket? NOT shimano

This is a "sentimental" bike restoration of a bike that was custom built for my good friend, Doug's, father. This bike was custom built in the late 70's. It has all the state of the art components of the time. I finally got the cranks off with a TA puller I ordered.

Lots of Campy components
TA Cranks

It does have a sealed bottom bracket, and it probably not original. When I tried the Shimano BB tool, it doesn't line up, though it looks very much like it would. I checked carefully.
It is not Campy.
What other style of sealed bottom bracket could it be? And yes,this bike is beat up, it is a labor of love for a very dear friend.
Photo is of drive side, same on other side.

Sealed bottom braket. ISO square taper for TA crank
__________________
"Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you."

~Hafiz
Nubra is offline  
Old 10-22-20, 11:02 AM
  #2  
rustystrings61 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 1,703

Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1974 Allegro No. 76, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1973 Raleigh GS, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 585 Post(s)
Liked 659 Times in 368 Posts
Looks like a Phil Wood unit to me!
rustystrings61 is offline  
Likes For rustystrings61:
Old 10-22-20, 11:09 AM
  #3  
Murray Missile 
Senior Member
 
Murray Missile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: 700 Ft. above sea level.
Posts: 2,614

Bikes: Not as many as there were awhile ago.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 283 Posts
Originally Posted by rustystrings61 View Post
Looks like a Phil Wood unit to me!
I'll 2nd that.
__________________
".....distasteful and easily triggered."
Murray Missile is offline  
Likes For Murray Missile:
Old 10-22-20, 11:29 AM
  #4  
Salamandrine 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,287

Bikes: 78 Masi Criterium, 68 PX10, 2016 Mercian King of Mercia, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr

Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2312 Post(s)
Liked 563 Times in 404 Posts
Circa the late 70s, a TA crank and Phil Wood BB was the hot setup for touring, or for someone who wanted a triple or other non race gearing. Older bike shops will still have the remover for those if you don't want to buy one. Phil will rebuild them for a modest fee if it has gotten crunchy in the last 40+ years.

Shimano copied Phil, not the other way around. Just to make that clear...
Salamandrine is offline  
Likes For Salamandrine:
Old 10-22-20, 12:16 PM
  #5  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 22,848

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2688 Post(s)
Liked 1,397 Times in 868 Posts
I concur; looks like a Phil mounting ring (N.B. Phil rings do fit other cartridges, so there's a small, but non-zero chance that the cartridge itself might not be Phil).

Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Shimano copied Phil, not the other way around. Just to make that clear...
But not closely enough to use the same tool as Phil
JohnDThompson is offline  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 10-22-20, 12:28 PM
  #6  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
noobinsf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 2,595

Bikes: '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '83 Mercian KOM Touring, '85 Univega Alpina Uno, '76 Eisentraut Limited

Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 814 Post(s)
Liked 618 Times in 406 Posts
Yep, Phil Wood. I had a pleasant surprise like that on one of my bikes, too!
noobinsf is offline  
Old 10-22-20, 07:31 PM
  #7  
polymorphself 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,426
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 568 Post(s)
Liked 567 Times in 290 Posts
Ok but show us the rest of the bike
polymorphself is offline  
Old 10-22-20, 09:01 PM
  #8  
repechage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 16,110
Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1959 Post(s)
Liked 800 Times in 620 Posts
Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Circa the late 70s, a TA crank and Phil Wood BB was the hot setup for touring, or for someone who wanted a triple or other non race gearing. Older bike shops will still have the remover for those if you don't want to buy one. Phil will rebuild them for a modest fee if it has gotten crunchy in the last 40+ years.

Shimano copied Phil, not the other way around. Just to make that clear...
I bought a bike with what I thought was a Phil bottom bracket... nope, Phil rings, stronglight spindle and French bearings.
repechage is offline  
Old 10-23-20, 05:18 AM
  #9  
Murray Missile 
Senior Member
 
Murray Missile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: 700 Ft. above sea level.
Posts: 2,614

Bikes: Not as many as there were awhile ago.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 283 Posts
Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
Yep, Phil Wood. I had a pleasant surprise like that on one of my bikes, too!
Likewise. Took an '88 GT Karakoram in trade that had a TA triple. Pulled the crank and it was, "Hello. 🤔 What have we here?". Then.... 😲😎😎😎😎😎 It's safely stashed away for the right bike.
__________________
".....distasteful and easily triggered."
Murray Missile is offline  
Likes For Murray Missile:
Old 10-23-20, 08:24 AM
  #10  
rustystrings61 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 1,703

Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1974 Allegro No. 76, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1973 Raleigh GS, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 585 Post(s)
Liked 659 Times in 368 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
I concur; looks like a Phil mounting ring (N.B. Phil rings do fit other cartridges, so there's a small, but non-zero chance that the cartridge itself might not be Phil).



But not closely enough to use the same tool as Phil
One of the tricks bandied about 15 years ago or so was to run a Shimano UN-72 BB with French or Swiss mounting rings to get a relatively affordable BB setup. Then Shimano went to permanently affixed mounting rings on their BBs and spiked that move. I remember a friends's Mondia being set up that way.
rustystrings61 is offline  
Likes For rustystrings61:
Old 10-23-20, 10:58 AM
  #11  
clubman 
Youngman Grand
 
clubman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,555

Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 973 Times in 655 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage View Post
I bought a bike with what I thought was a Phil bottom bracket... nope, Phil rings, stronglight spindle and French bearings.
Similarly, I bought a Raleigh Clubman with Phil rings, Shimano spindle and cranks. Bummer. Sold the 26 tpi rings.
clubman is offline  
Likes For clubman:
Old 10-26-20, 10:33 AM
  #12  
Nubra 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Nubra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 204

Bikes: Miyata six-ten, Miyata Grand Touring, Univega Sport Tour, Univega Gran Turismo, 80's Trek MTB, 2008 Dahon Mariner

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by Murray Missile View Post
I'll 2nd that.
Originally Posted by rustystrings61 View Post
Looks like a Phil Wood unit to me!
Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Circa the late 70s, a TA crank and Phil Wood BB was the hot setup for touring, or for someone who wanted a triple or other non race gearing. Older bike shops will still have the remover for those if you don't want to buy one. Phil will rebuild them for a modest fee if it has gotten crunchy in the last 40+ years.

Shimano copied Phil, not the other way around. Just to make that clear...
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
I concur; looks like a Phil mounting ring (N.B. Phil rings do fit other cartridges, so there's a small, but non-zero chance that the cartridge itself might not be Phil).



But not closely enough to use the same tool as Phil
Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
Yep, Phil Wood. I had a pleasant surprise like that on one of my bikes, too!
Thanks, y'all
While this is a "sentimental" restoration, it is being done on a budget. My friend Doug really doesn't want a "restoration" per se, he wants it to be functional so that his grown son can take it on an occasional ride. Doug has a shortened lease on life, and is clearing things out of his life. His son worked with Ibis and did about 15K miles on his aborted solo around the world trip.( Siberian roads and massive trucks made him value his life more than the ride.) Son will only ride occasionally and the bike will probably live in garage, a momento, not a daily (sigh). So I am doing what I can to make it ride-able.
The BB bearings are a tiny bit crunchy, but rotate without binding at all. I am afraid that removing it may be really difficult, as the rings look like they are rusted solid to the shell.
But thanks so much.

The wheel hubs look like PW also, stainless steel, with signature press in bearing, high flange, BUT there is no red "phil Wood" lettering on them. Did they make them without the signature?

Thanks again. I am lucky to be a member of this community.
Nubra
__________________
"Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you."

~Hafiz

Last edited by Nubra; 10-26-20 at 10:41 AM. Reason: spelling and add info
Nubra is offline  
Old 10-26-20, 11:12 AM
  #13  
rustystrings61 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 1,703

Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1974 Allegro No. 76, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1973 Raleigh GS, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 585 Post(s)
Liked 659 Times in 368 Posts
Don't give up on the Phil mounting rings; PowerBlaster is your friend. See if you can carefully start infiltrating the stuff right where the rings join the BB shell, without getting too much into the bearings themselves. If it freed up the bolts holding the bed of my '97 Ford Ranger in place, it'll probably work for this, too!
rustystrings61 is offline  
Old 10-26-20, 03:35 PM
  #14  
The Golden Boy 
Extraordinary Magnitude
 
The Golden Boy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 12,797

Bikes: 1978 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT

Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2268 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times in 479 Posts
Originally Posted by Nubra View Post
The wheel hubs look like PW also, stainless steel, with signature press in bearing, high flange, BUT there is no red "phil Wood" lettering on them. Did they make them without the signature?
The older ones have the logo just either painted or screened on, and it does come off.
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*

Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!

"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
The Golden Boy is offline  
Likes For The Golden Boy:
Old 10-26-20, 04:04 PM
  #15  
Nubra 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Nubra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 204

Bikes: Miyata six-ten, Miyata Grand Touring, Univega Sport Tour, Univega Gran Turismo, 80's Trek MTB, 2008 Dahon Mariner

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by The Golden Boy View Post
The older ones have the logo just either painted or screened on, and it does come off.
I just talked to the PW service department, a really nice guy named Peter. He also told me that the screened on logo would have fallen off by now.
THANKS
__________________
"Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you."

~Hafiz
Nubra is offline  
Likes For Nubra:
Old 10-26-20, 04:11 PM
  #16  
Nubra 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Nubra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 204

Bikes: Miyata six-ten, Miyata Grand Touring, Univega Sport Tour, Univega Gran Turismo, 80's Trek MTB, 2008 Dahon Mariner

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by rustystrings61 View Post
Don't give up on the Phil mounting rings; PowerBlaster is your friend....
I believe you about your truck bolts. I used PowerBlaster for several years until I found Kroil, and I use that pretty exclusively now. Not only is the BB rusted into the Shell, the rings themselves look kinda banged up. All the splines look good but the face on the non-driveside has some real ding marks. THey don't extend to the shell however, so there is hope. This bike apparently made two trips across the US, in its day.
I found a LBS mechanic, in his 60's, who has a PW BB removal tool. He works one day a weeks for fun. He will lend it to me. Also, really nice community here in Santa Cruz.
Cheers!
Nubra
__________________
"Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you."

~Hafiz
Nubra is offline  
Likes For Nubra:
Old 10-26-20, 04:17 PM
  #17  
Nubra 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Nubra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 204

Bikes: Miyata six-ten, Miyata Grand Touring, Univega Sport Tour, Univega Gran Turismo, 80's Trek MTB, 2008 Dahon Mariner

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by polymorphself View Post
Ok but show us the rest of the bike
The bike is in pieces, and I didn't take a pre-photo. Apparently, the bike builder is Albert Isentort, a legend in the Bay Area ( I am just learning this) He is still building bike frames in his 80's. If you want a photo of just the frame, I can offer that if you like?
__________________
"Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you."

~Hafiz
Nubra is offline  
Old 10-26-20, 05:19 PM
  #18  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
noobinsf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 2,595

Bikes: '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '83 Mercian KOM Touring, '85 Univega Alpina Uno, '76 Eisentraut Limited

Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 814 Post(s)
Liked 618 Times in 406 Posts
Originally Posted by Nubra View Post
The bike is in pieces, and I didn't take a pre-photo. Apparently, the bike builder is Albert Isentort, a legend in the Bay Area ( I am just learning this) He is still building bike frames in his 80's. If you want a photo of just the frame, I can offer that if you like?
Albert Eisentraut. Frame pic, yes please! We love Eisentrauts here.
noobinsf is offline  
Likes For noobinsf:
Old 10-26-20, 07:53 PM
  #19  
gugie 
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 9,452

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 1028 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3401 Post(s)
Liked 1,858 Times in 926 Posts
Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
Albert Eisentraut. Frame pic, yes please! We love Eisentrauts here.
Naw, OP sez Isentort, famous Bay Area lawyer at that time.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Likes For gugie:
Old 10-28-20, 10:47 PM
  #20  
Nubra 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Nubra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 204

Bikes: Miyata six-ten, Miyata Grand Touring, Univega Sport Tour, Univega Gran Turismo, 80's Trek MTB, 2008 Dahon Mariner

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
Albert Eisentraut. Frame pic, yes please! We love Eisentrauts here.
I did some research on what Doug thought was an Eisentraut: it probably is NOT! Sigh, still a very nice bike, and custom made, but after comparing with Eisentraut's signature lugs on his website, this is not one of his.
Cheers!
Nubra
__________________
"Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you."

~Hafiz
Nubra is offline  
Old 10-29-20, 01:38 AM
  #21  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 8,367

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 162 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2546 Post(s)
Liked 1,819 Times in 1,224 Posts
Originally Posted by Nubra View Post
I did some research on what Doug thought was an Eisentraut: it probably is NOT! Sigh, still a very nice bike, and custom made, but after comparing with Eisentraut's signature lugs on his website, this is not one of his.
Cheers!
Nubra
He went through many transitions, had many students, apprentices, disciples, etc. including Bruce Gordon and others, he did production and spec frames as well.

I wouldn't rule him or one of his tribe out, he cast a very wide net, many variations over a very long timeline.
merziac is offline  
Old 10-29-20, 09:25 AM
  #22  
obrentharris 
Senior Member
 
obrentharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Point Reyes Station, California
Posts: 3,523

Bikes: Indeed!

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1024 Post(s)
Liked 1,239 Times in 484 Posts
The one photo you have posted looks like the bottom bracket shell used in the Eisentraut "Limited," a less expensive frame than the signature but still a very nice frameset. Please post more photos.

There is a small chance that I sold that frame to your friend's father. In the late seventies I worked in a Santa Cruz shop that sold Eisentraut frames.

Brent
obrentharris is offline  
Likes For obrentharris:
Old 10-29-20, 10:16 AM
  #23  
klasse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Venezia, CA.
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked 29 Times in 13 Posts
Phil made two tools, I never got the one with lever arm attached. Great bottom bracket, I think they use the same tool since 1971.
klasse is offline  
Likes For klasse:
Old 10-29-20, 05:01 PM
  #24  
Murray Missile 
Senior Member
 
Murray Missile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: 700 Ft. above sea level.
Posts: 2,614

Bikes: Not as many as there were awhile ago.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 283 Posts
Originally Posted by Nubra View Post
........ I used PowerBlaster for several years until I found Kroil, and I use that pretty exclusively now.......
And I'll second THIS too!
__________________
".....distasteful and easily triggered."
Murray Missile is offline  
Likes For Murray Missile:
Old 11-01-20, 09:56 PM
  #25  
Nubra 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Nubra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Posts: 204

Bikes: Miyata six-ten, Miyata Grand Touring, Univega Sport Tour, Univega Gran Turismo, 80's Trek MTB, 2008 Dahon Mariner

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 61 Post(s)
Liked 52 Times in 37 Posts
Originally Posted by merziac View Post
He went through many transitions, had many students, apprentices, disciples, etc. including Bruce Gordon and others, he did production and spec frames as well.

I wouldn't rule him or one of his tribe out, he cast a very wide net, many variations over a very long timeline.
Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
The one photo you have posted looks like the bottom bracket shell used in the Eisentraut "Limited," a less expensive frame than the signature but still a very nice frameset. Please post more photos.

There is a small chance that I sold that frame to your friend's father. In the late seventies I worked in a Santa Cruz shop that sold Eisentraut frames.

Brent
Doug couldn't find documentation, but I will continue to investigate and will post photos on next post.
__________________
"Ever since happiness heard your name, it has been running through the streets trying to find you."

~Hafiz
Nubra is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.