bradcycles

Someone has been flagging our tandem rides on Strava. Strava customer support seems to think it's ok for users to flag our tandem rides since we list our tandem account as "female" even though it's a male/female team. See below for the interaction from Strava customer support:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: [Stubbedmy...]
Date: Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Strava Customer Support] Re: someone flagged my tandem ride
To: Strava Customer Support <support+id149187@strava.zendesk.com>


but there are tandem females who list it as if they did as a single female rider.i think this is unfair. but should i do that instead? the reason we listed as female bc the tandem community wants people to take notice that there should be a tandem category.


On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Elle Anderson <notifications-support@strava.zendesk.com> wrote:

## Please do not write below this line ##
Ticket #149187 : someone flagged my tandem ride

Your request (#149187 ) has been updated.

To review the status of the request and add additional comments, follow the link below:
https://strava.zendesk.com/tickets/149187

You can also add a comment by replying to this email.


Elle Anderson, Sep 03 02:22 pm (PDT):

Hello,

I believe the reason that the activity was flagged is because the tandem account is marked as "female" when the tandem team appears to be a man and a woman?

The flagger is concerned that the activities are being placed unfairly on the female segment leaderboards.

Hope that helps.

Best,
Elle
Strava Support Team


Stubbed My To… C., Aug 29 09:58 pm (PDT):

someone tagged my tandem ride: https://www.strava.com/activities/63663952

I tried to unflag it but strava has a bug and it won't let me. I created a tandem account for my tandem rides because you don't have a tandem category and i wanted to make it clear and fair that i rode these rides on my tandem. A lot of tandem teams just upload the ride as a single rider and get "achievements" as single riders. I think this is unfair and that is why i created a separate tandem account. please unflag. Otherwise, i'll start uploading to my single account like the other tandem riders.
This email is a service from Strava Customer Support.

10 Wheels

Turn it Off.....you don't need it you ride a bike.

bradcycles

that would be silly. of course it's not needed to ride a bike. but, it's fun and we enjoy it.

photogravity

+1 There is a reason I don't participate in Strava: I care about riding my bike and, while it is nice to have some stats to show my progress, I'm not particularly concerned in "competing" with other folks.

bradcycles

ok, i understand that you don't like to "compete" with other folks. does that mean that nobody else should be allowed to "compete" with other folks? we enjoy competition.

photogravity

Sure, I understand what you're saying, but I think that what bothers me about competing with folks is that sometimes it creates an atmosphere of pettiness such as that which you are encountering on Strava. Just sayin'.

waynesulak

Interesting that the tandem team is not steeling any thunder. If you are plainly listed as a tandem team then the second place rider (first single women rider) would know and everyone in the world would know that she is the fastest female rider.

I don't use Strava but what is the top female loosing here? Is there a crown that goes with the QOM?

StubbedMyToe

Right...but it wouldn't be petty if there were clear categories (i.e. single bikes, tandems, recumbent, etc). In an effort to get Strava to take notice of these niche categories, the tandem groups thought it would be the most fair if we uploaded our rides to separate tandem accounts, get high on the leaderboards, and make Strava take notice. The problem is: should we list the tandem account as a female or a male? Well...if the goal is to get strava to take notice...then clearly, tandems should be listing themselves as females. YOU ARE ONLY NOTICED on strava if you are high on the leaderboards! Even a strong mixed tandem team could rarely be faster than the fastest single male riders so a tandem team listed as "male" would never be noticed!

Several tandems list their tandems in the "male" category (which I think is stupid if our goal is get strava to notice us)...BUT even worse, the females would also upload their tandem rides to their single rider accounts and earn top placement on leaderboards as if they did it on their own. THIS is unfair and deceptive...but since their times are not extraordinarily fast, nobody flags those rides! I have my tandem rides clearly labeled as "tandem" under a tandem account with a tandem name. There is no deception. I didn't earn those crowns and trophies on my own so i don't deserve them as my own. Also...i would NEVER want to use my tandem times as my own because i want to earn my own set of crowns and trophies as a single rider too.

StubbedMyToe

Correct. Anyone looking at the leaderboards can see that that my tandem team might have the 1st place finish. But i look at it and I KNOW and everyone else should know that the 2nd place female who did it on her own is clearly the fastest female on that segment. But you are also correct that on strava, that 2nd place female loses her crown. This sucks...but on the tandem group, everyone agreed that if people don't get worked up about this, strava will never create tandem categories.

bradcycles

ok, so someone just flagged the same ride that i posted on strava under my personal account ("male" account):

https://www.strava.com/activities/63662812

I always clearly label my tandem rides as "tandem" in the title of the rides. I know many other tandem teams who do not label them so clearly. It seems as if we are getting penalized for making it clear that we are riding as a tandem.

As Strava's solution for this unfairness with tandems, they suggest we keep our rides as "private" or label them as "workouts" so that we won't show up in any leaderboards. Wow, great customer support, especially as I am a paying "premium" member of Strava. So, I don't get to upload my tandem rides and make them publicly available as rides? Just because Strava doesn't have a "tandem" category. Not cool.

See below for the latest response from Strava:

Elle Anderson, Sep 03 03:28 pm (PDT):

Hello again,

I hope this makes sense - if you are a tandem with a male and a female rider, it is considered not fair to receive the achievements of a female (because you're sharing the work with a male). If you were two women on a tandem, or two men on a tandem, that would be considered different. To make things equal, it is also technically not fair to receive achievements for a male if there is a male/female tandem.

We don't have a tandem category, as you know, so we cannot resolve flagged activities of "mixed gender" tandems. To resolve the flags yourself, you can either make the activities private, or list them as a 'workout' type which removes them from cycling leaderboards but keeps the activities public.

Please know that we are in discussion internally about the best way to handle tandem data going forward.
Thanks for your patience!

Best,
Elle
Strava Support Team

cajoe

And that's the rub. If you are a fast tandem team and list as female you are going to stir the pot and people will get worked up. Therefore bradcycles should expect the type of behavior he is seeing because it is expected (desired?) that listing a fast tandem team as female will piss people off.

If, on the other hand, you rather cycle in peace and avoid the drama you can set gender to "Rather not say". That's what we do (even though we're not fast enough that it matters!). You can still compare your ride to others. You can still set personal bests. You just won't appear on KOM lists.

StubbedMyToe

Cajoe. I think you're right. This is too much drama. I was thinking...maybe just list it as a "rather not say". Mostly...i just want to see my own progress and our tandem's progress. HOWEVER....strava is going crazy over there now! THEY ARE discriminating against me and beginning to flag all my other tandem rides. This is really frustrating and it's just pissing me off now. If they are going to flag my tandem rides...they need to flag EVERYONE's tandem rides!

ct-vt-trekker

Strava is flawed in more ways than this. I know riders who have the fastest segment because they drafted on a team of riders who took the lead for them ove rhte entire segment. Another guy said he go so pissed he lost his KOM that did a segment on a moped now he's listed as fastest. There is no way to police this so why even take part. I'd guess a good portion of the times have been cheated anyway.

StubbedMyToe

lol ct-vt-trekker. i guess this really is all very silly. but it got me so worked up because i totally feel like strava is ganging up on me. ughhhhhhh. EXTRA frustrating because i'm being punished for being honest while others are being rewarded for lying. And Strava just doesn't seem to want to listen to me....

ct-vt-trekker

I agree it is crazy that they don't have a tandem catagory. That lame answer they gave you indicates that they just don't care about fixing this either. I guess they feel that it's not worth the effort to write new code to handle tandems. I'd cancel and tell them why if I were you, but they probably won't care if they lose a few tandem riders.

Dean V

I know if there was a tandem category where we are we would have every KOM. Not because we are fast, but because there are so few tandems in our area. So That would be pointless. We just list as a single male even though we are a mixed team. We can get the odd flat KOM and most downhill ones and no one has flagged it before. Personally I think it is unfair to list as a female for a mixed team. You have a definite advantage and even though you might make it clear you are on a tandem the simple fact is you will be taking KOMs off legitimate female riders.

Ritterview

Screenshot of the choices at Strava under My Profile:

• There isn't a choice for tandem, mixed or otherwise.
• It is rather not say. Its up to you! Not: If you are a tandem-- you better not say.
• If Strava prefers tandem team accounts to identify as Rather not Say, then Strava is free to so advise. But there is no such advice, presumably because for Strava to deign to recognize the existence of tandems, at all, with even a suggestion, is for Strava to thus incur an expectation to reciprocate with some sort of tandem accommodation. Say, a check box. But Strava doesn't want to pull on that string, for fear of incurring yet further obligations to make it workable.
• So, Strava is trying to pretend tandems don't exist, which is difficult when female stokers listing their exploits as a member of a tandem team refuse to take the hint to desex themselves, so as to not further inconvenience Strava.

uspspro

I list ours a separate "male" account. For most of the segments out there (that anyone really cares about) a male racer on a solo bike will have the advantage (I don't see us getting a 14 min Old La Honda time anytime soon).

Typically, I think flagging stuff is pretty lame... However, I could understand some gripe from the female athletes out there.

Generally, for the same level of athlete the female athlete will be slower... For example, a top Cat 3 male is probably faster than a Cat 1 woman. Couple that with the fact that (unfortunately) there are way fewer woman riders out racing and engaged in other competitions (like Strava). These two facts mean that it wouldn't be so hard for a run of the mill tandem team (such as ourselves) to grab up several QOMs from the female riders out there that did not have the assistance of a potentially faster male rider. Imagine a rider goes out and gets a hard-earned QOM just to have an average rider, with some Pro1/2 guy captain pulling her up the hill, go and destroy it.

I upload the Garmin data to our tandem (male) account as public, while my wife uploads the tandem rides to her account as private. That way she can track her progress, while not effecting the QOMs out there.

If a guy is getting upset about a tandem taking his KOM, then he should just get faster

I wish they had a true "mixed tandem" category, but for now, we are fine competing with the guys. I know we won't get many KOMs, but it's still fun to compare!

bradcycles

I agree that KOMs are less likely as a male tandem, but anyone obviously has an unfair advantage on anything flat or descending when on a tandem. Two engines produce more power than one engine. So, for example, out on Canada Road which is flat and rolling, I can go much faster on a tandem than I could just by myself on my single (non-aero bike). I have about 67% more power than I normally do with my stoker (StubbedMyToe). So, I'm getting an unfair advantage. I will be higher on the leaderboard for that segment than I could be by myself. Of course, with all the group rides in the area, it can be tough to be KOM on these segments, because you have groups of 80+ guys on the spectrum rides and noon rides traveling these routes, so many people are going much faster on these segments than what they could achieve alone. Should Strava require those on a group ride to indicate that they drafted? That's also unfair to single riders. How about specifying when one is using aero equipment? That's also unfair to non-aero riders.

I guess my point is that riding a mixed tandem either as a "male" or a "female" will enable you to achieve better times on flat or downhill Strava segments than you could otherwise achieve alone on a non-aero road bike without the benefit of a group. So, either way, you are getting higher on the leaderboard than you could alone (irrespective of whether or not you get the KOM; you are still moving other potentially stronger riders further down on leaderboards).

uspspro

You bring up a good point about the group rides...

Which I guess brings out another point... which is they have to draw the line (moderating/categorizing) somewhere, and just let the community sort itself out.

I figure most riders will say "let those tandems have their fun" with downhill segments (although very technical stuff typically lends it's advantage to solo racers once again), and the flat stuff, since most of the competition is on the climbing segments. Also the advantage of a tandem vs a male racer is debatable on many of those segments. I guess (to me, for most segments around here) it comes down to...

- Adding the assistance of a less powerful person to yourself= OK
- Adding the assistance of a more powerful person to yourself= Not OK

YMMV, but I tried to follow what I thought was the most logical/fair etiquette in the absence of a mixed tandem category.

Team Fab

I think part of the problem is that most cyclists out there assume that a tandem is easier than a single bike all of the time, not just downhill or on the flats. They also assume equal strength of the captain and stoker. For many tandem "couples" this is not the case.
Also, Strava has become almost a race league of its own. As such people covet thy KOM/QOM.
We set ourselves up as a male as we have already had problems with Gran Fondo's (they have also become the everyman race class)(and locally this is the closest we can come to a race)and did not want a repeat.


Just my two cents

merlinextraligh

If you want to actually compete, pin a number on.

I can see that Strava may be fun and inspirational for some, but to worry about it enough to flag a segment, or protest being flagged just seems silly to me.

merlinextraligh

This just seems absurd to me. As this thread points out, the Tandem issue is a confounder. Beyond that, you've got a zillion other factors that effect how fast someone is for a particular segment on a particular day.

Most notably wind direction and speed. Apparently, People actually wait for the right wind to "bag" various segments. Then there is the issue of drafting a large fast group, versus time trialing solo, what type of bike (road vs TT bike) and whether you rode the segment after 100 miles to get there, or warmed up for 3 miles and TT'd the segment.

So play with the data if its your thing, but treating it akin to an actual race is just silly.

uspspro

Brad & Sandy,

You guys should take the tandem out to the Low Key Hill Climbs this year.

You guys will crush MANY singles, and it gives you a chance to race on the tandem (a rare opportunity, unfortunately)

We have done them in the past, and they are always a lot of fun.

contango 

... and whether or not you've got an engine you forgot to mention. Anyone can stick a GPS on a moped and ride the route, or for that matter anyone can spend 5 minutes using BikeRouteToaster with their average speed set to 35mph and create a GPX file, complete with automated slowing down on inclines.