79pmooney

I find all this rather amusing. The rim was destroyed, the tire came off enough to cause a nasty and race ending crash, all caused by (apparently) by an object that cannot be seen, found or identified. But because this object (however small or insignificant) caused this damage, this hookless rim is "off the hook". Just a risk of riding.

Just an old fart here. I want my tires to stay on and the wheels to run through the bike frame, even if I hit an object bigger than insignificant. Yes, after I hit stuff, I may crash, but I want my wheels to do their best to keep me up and above all, minimize the over the bars crashes that hurt faces and collarbones, not be the cause.

This thread is "

Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…

I concur

DaveSSS 

A pot hole wouldn't be readily visible. Riding right along a guard rail isn't very smart either, but it's common to see riders completely off the road when part of a wide peloton. A wheel could also be damaged long before and finally just break with no apparent cause. I don't worry one bit when I'm going 50+ mph on my 25mm IW wheels and Pirelli P-Zero 28mm tubeless tires. I do it several times a week.

The solution for pro teams is to do like Giant does and ignore ETRTO or stock up on 30mm tires.

​​​​​

Dave Mayer

The blindingly obvious solution is for the pros to ride on tubulars. Tubular rims are more impact resistant, safer and lighter. I've inspected carbon tubular rims after massive impacts such as hitting curbs dead-on. The carbon is crushed inwards by an inch or more and the wheel has a major hop. Tire stayed on tight though, and the riders rolled to a controlled stop.

Yan 

I can't speak for pros but I can't personally go back to tubulars for regular riding. I had a lot more motivation in those days. Laziness increased with age.

DaveSSS 

I've read reports from MTB users that carbon rims are far less likely to be damaged than the aluminum rims that they had been using. No going back to aluminum for them

Racing Dan

Truth!

Assuming a pro team with cars and mechanics its hard hard to argue the benefits of tubs. Anyone else can debate the tradeoffs with clinchers, tubeless or hookless. In my mind TL + hookless is one step forward and several steps backwards.

PeteHski

Is TL with hooked rims okay?

phrantic09

Nope- tubular only bra

elcruxio

That sounds very uncomfortable.

Racing Dan

Why? Its almost the same thing, only hookless is a devolution to a system that was abandoned decades ago. It obviously has less tyre retention and it opens a barn door to all sorts of operating errors, in it requiring special TSS compatible tyres, in the correct width and pressure. Hooked TL and clinchers are much more forgiving.

PeteHski

What is almost the same thing? You’ve lost me here. Hooked tubeless is fine right? No need for anyone to go back to tubulars if they get freaked out by hookless rims.

DaveSSS 

Most tires that are tubeless approved are now hookless approved too. Michelin was an exception in their early days of tubeless because the bead stretched too much.

What does TL mean? Tubeless is one word.

choddo

Yeah but one letter acronyms lead to a lot of confusion after the first 26

79pmooney

If you wear them on your rims, they are very comfortable.

Racing Dan

That is true. As long as you get a recent TL tyre its likely also TSS approved. But no guarantee. Worse is hookless rims are the exact same size as any other rim and will let you mount a clincher and tube. Thats a death trap and I bet you a months pay some poor schmo will get a pair of used hookless rims and have no clue they are not compatible with his clinchers, unless the rim is plastered with warnings in straight forward language that's understandable even if you are not familiar with the subtle nuances between hooked and hookless rim and the associated naming conventions. All in indelible ink.

Racing Dan

Why do you WANT me to answer that? Sure its good enough, however that was not the point of my earlier posts. It was that tubs are better, if you can deal with the associated faff.

tomato coupe

If someone uses TL, a small number of people may not know what it refers to. If someone uses T, most people won't know what it refers to. It's best to go with the odds ...

genejockey 

"T - stands for 'tubed', right?"

Sy Reene

T = Tubular
BHTC = Tubed (Behind The Times Curmudgeon)
TSS = Tubeless Straight Side
TC = Tubeless Crochet

genejockey 

I think you have 1 and 2 mixed up.

Dave Mayer

I don't think you understand what a tubular tire is, and why the tubular rim is superior in every respect to a clincher rim, hookless or tubeless otherwise.

The advantage in the tubular SYSTEM is not the tire but the RIM. The tubular rim has no hooks at all, the key advantage because hooks of any size or configuration add weight at the worst place on a bike, they are fragile, cause pinch flats and do not conduct braking heat well.

If given a support vehicle (pros), nobody would ever want to be on clinchers whether hookless, tubeless or tubed. The rim design is fundamentally inferior in terms of weight and strength, and it is less safe.

Dave Mayer

Warnings? About once per week at our shop some mechanic explodes a tire off of a rim. One guy did it three times in succession, presumably in a destructive tire/rim hookless compatibility test. Easier than doing the tedious chore of reading instructions - right?

Trakhak

Don't know if you were around and racing in the 1980's, when high-performance wired-on/clincher tires began to be a significant presence in the market, but almost all of the racers I knew who had used tubulars exclusively for years (since 1964, in my case) had switched to, e.g., Specialized Turbo/S clinchers by 1990 or so.

I hung on to tubulars longer than many of the others, but I eventually switched, too. Flatting two tubulars simultaneously 30 miles from home while carrying only one spare tire is probably what pushed me over the edge. I'd have flatted both clinchers, too, but I'd have been able to replace one tube and patch the other.

We had one guy working in our shop back then who was aiming to be chosen for the national road team. I only learned that he, too, had switched to clinchers when I overheard him speaking dismissively of Turbo/S tires to a customer: "I only get three or four weeks out of a Turbo/S!"

I asked him (for the benefit of the customer, really) how many miles he rode per week.

"Between 500 and 550."

Sy Reene

Are you referring to circumstances though where you all had support vehicles, which presumably could have had an inexhaustible supply of backup wheels already set up with tubular tires on them? What would be the advantage of wired bead clinchers over tubulars in this instance?

Trakhak

No. I was referring to training rides. I guess I should have made that clearer. I doubt many of us carried spare tires in races.