Just another weekend...abusing a 1960's-ish Bianchi.
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Not obvious in the pics, but the headtube on those frames is smaller than normal, not the usual 1-1/4" (31.7 mm). Sorry I don't remember the measurement, but too small for any normal reamer to pass through. The bores for the bearings are larger, and flat-bottomed, like a counterbore. Unlike on a usual headset where the top and bottom faces of the HT are what detemines the squareness of the bearing to the axis, on these it's the bottom of the counterbore that determines the squareness. The top/bottom faces don't touch anything in use, so they only need to be square enough to not rub on the moving parts.
Yeah that's an example of the later design where the lower race that presses into the HT is a cup, and the part on the fork crown is a cone. On my 1960, the cup rotates with the crown, and the "cut line" where the two parts move relative to each other is right at the bottom of the HT. Dunno which is better technically (like more durable maybe?) but I like the old way better, just aesthetically.
Here's one "old style" on a 1933 Umberto Dei:
And here's one from this millennium, ~90 years later — apparently still being made?
A little off-topic but check out the ultra-swanky roller-lever brake levers integrated into the handlebars on that Dei. Want!
While I'm off-topic, just one more. When was the last time you saw a new 2023 bike with cottered cranks and full chaincase? With hand pin-striping?
Mark B
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Not sure I get it, what's the reamer for? If you mean the head lugs, to fit the headset pressed-in races, then I guarantee no adjustable reamer would work.
Not obvious in the pics, but the headtube on those frames is smaller than normal, not the usual 1-1/4" (31.7 mm). Sorry I don't remember the measurement, but too small for any normal reamer to pass through. The bores for the bearings are larger, and flat-bottomed, like a counterbore. Unlike on a usual headset where the top and bottom faces of the HT are what detemines the squareness of the bearing to the axis, on these it's the bottom of the counterbore that determines the squareness. The top/bottom faces don't touch anything in use, so they only need to be square enough to not rub on the moving parts.
Mark B
Not obvious in the pics, but the headtube on those frames is smaller than normal, not the usual 1-1/4" (31.7 mm). Sorry I don't remember the measurement, but too small for any normal reamer to pass through. The bores for the bearings are larger, and flat-bottomed, like a counterbore. Unlike on a usual headset where the top and bottom faces of the HT are what detemines the squareness of the bearing to the axis, on these it's the bottom of the counterbore that determines the squareness. The top/bottom faces don't touch anything in use, so they only need to be square enough to not rub on the moving parts.
Mark B
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Almost forgot - I de-gunked the raceway for some closeups last night. bulgie, I think the writing is on the wall that these aren't the Campagnolo cups.
Clearly a V-shaped raceway, and worn out pretty well too, I'd say.
She's definitely "been around the block."
I'm curious if Umberto Dei sells a tool to service their own current city bike. Also a shame that someone didn't press the crankarm cover into it's slot properly for the pics (!)
Beautiful machine though. Pity that it's probably now a fashion accessory with a wild price rather than a city bicycle within the means for the average person to afford, if expensive.
I've got four of those. There's no way the right size tool would fit due to the lug raceway seat necking down to the size of the headtube.
-Kurt
Clearly a V-shaped raceway, and worn out pretty well too, I'd say.
She's definitely "been around the block."
Not sure I get it, what's the reamer for? If you mean the head lugs, to fit the headset pressed-in races, then I guarantee no adjustable reamer would work.
Not obvious in the pics, but the headtube on those frames is smaller than normal, not the usual 1-1/4" (31.7 mm). Sorry I don't remember the measurement, but too small for any normal reamer to pass through. The bores for the bearings are larger, and flat-bottomed, like a counterbore. Unlike on a usual headset where the top and bottom faces of the HT are what detemines the squareness of the bearing to the axis, on these it's the bottom of the counterbore that determines the squareness. The top/bottom faces don't touch anything in use, so they only need to be square enough to not rub on the moving parts.
Yeah that's an example of the later design where the lower race that presses into the HT is a cup, and the part on the fork crown is a cone. On my 1960, the cup rotates with the crown, and the "cut line" where the two parts move relative to each other is right at the bottom of the HT. Dunno which is better technically (like more durable maybe?) but I like the old way better, just aesthetically.
Here's one "old style" on a 1933 Umberto Dei:
And here's one from this millennium, ~90 years later — apparently still being made?
A little off-topic but check out the ultra-swanky roller-lever brake levers integrated into the handlebars on that Dei. Want!
While I'm off-topic, just one more. When was the last time you saw a new 2023 bike with cottered cranks and full chaincase? With hand pin-striping?
Mark B
Not obvious in the pics, but the headtube on those frames is smaller than normal, not the usual 1-1/4" (31.7 mm). Sorry I don't remember the measurement, but too small for any normal reamer to pass through. The bores for the bearings are larger, and flat-bottomed, like a counterbore. Unlike on a usual headset where the top and bottom faces of the HT are what detemines the squareness of the bearing to the axis, on these it's the bottom of the counterbore that determines the squareness. The top/bottom faces don't touch anything in use, so they only need to be square enough to not rub on the moving parts.
Yeah that's an example of the later design where the lower race that presses into the HT is a cup, and the part on the fork crown is a cone. On my 1960, the cup rotates with the crown, and the "cut line" where the two parts move relative to each other is right at the bottom of the HT. Dunno which is better technically (like more durable maybe?) but I like the old way better, just aesthetically.
Here's one "old style" on a 1933 Umberto Dei:
And here's one from this millennium, ~90 years later — apparently still being made?
A little off-topic but check out the ultra-swanky roller-lever brake levers integrated into the handlebars on that Dei. Want!
While I'm off-topic, just one more. When was the last time you saw a new 2023 bike with cottered cranks and full chaincase? With hand pin-striping?
Mark B
Beautiful machine though. Pity that it's probably now a fashion accessory with a wild price rather than a city bicycle within the means for the average person to afford, if expensive.
I was thinking something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/325345344180 to get the top and bottom IDs into round after brazing distortion. Concentricity and squareness might be affected, I imagine it would still be well within the margin for error though since you're just cleaning up... and it wouldn't cut a clean edge quite flush to the seat. But for 20 bucks I would give it a shot, unless I'm missing a more obvious issue.
-Kurt
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I was thinking something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/325345344180 to get the top and bottom IDs into round after brazing distortion. Concentricity and squareness might be affected, I imagine it would still be well within the margin for error though since you're just cleaning up... and it wouldn't cut a clean edge quite flush to the seat. But for 20 bucks I would give it a shot, unless I'm missing a more obvious issue.
Ah, found it, here's a pic showing the bore in a Specialissima:
Bob Freitas photo. This one is a "special" Specialissima which looks to have gotten extra attention in the shop, more thinning and shaping of the lugs. Bob, while doing the restore, found traces of original chrome amongst the rust, which is why he was confident this wasn't "aftermarket" work done by some previous owner — it appears to have been done in the Reparto Corsa at Bianchi. My Specialissima and all the others I've seen have less of this lug thinning/shaping, but the bearing bore looks pretty much like this.
One difference in the bore: mine doesn't have the notches you can see here, that are there to let you get your punch under the pressed-in cone, to drive it out. The races on mine, and others I've worked on, do have a slight ledge available for you to hammer on, but it's a thin edge, and requires a specially-shaped punch to get much purchase on it. I just took a generic drift punch, long enough to go through the head tube on a large frame, and sharpened it in a way to optimize the fit on that thin edge. A Campy-style "rocketship" punch won't work, due to the smaller diameter, though one could make a scaled-down rocketship that would work, just more work to make it and it'd be needed so rarely, not worth it to me. Those notches in this "special" frame would be really handy, allowing any old drift punch to work. So I might file some in, if I ever have one of these apart again, because getting the races out is a PITA.
Ironically, once you do have the races out, then you'll probably never need those notches again! Because realistically, how many times are you going to replace the headset races on one of these? Especially given that the races are nearly impossible to find? So adding the notches will probably be a waste of time. But I'm a retired hobbyist, so I don't mind wastes of time as long as they're at least a little entertaining or satisfying. Thinking about some future restorer taking my work apart and finding those notches, however unlikely that scenario is, might make it worthwhile to do.
Mark B
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Bob Freitas photo. This one is a "special" Specialissima which looks to have gotten extra attention in the shop, more thinning and shaping of the lugs. Bob, while doing the restore, found traces of original chrome amongst the rust, which is why he was confident this wasn't "aftermarket" work done by some previous owner — it appears to have been done in the Reparto Corsa at Bianchi. My Specialissima and all the others I've seen have less of this lug thinning/shaping, but the bearing bore looks pretty much like this.
-Kurt
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Shops I worked at had custom cutters made by tool grinding specialists a couple times. The cutter you describe would be no problem, just too expensive for fixing one bike. It'd only be worth it if you had a stack of those frames to do.
It could also be done with cheap generic single-point boring bar in a lathe or boring head on a mill, but the fixturing to hold the frame rigidly and in perfect alignment would be non-trivial. That's the way I would go if I had to machine one frame, but I can see spending half a day making the fixture and 'indicating it in'.
It would have to be some very valuable frame to be worth that. To quote Sam Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction, "We'd have to be talkin' about one charming [expletive deleted] pig. I mean, he'd have to be 10 times more charming than that Arnold on Green Acres."
Mark B
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I doubt that this is a stock item, but one can dream...
Shops I worked at had custom cutters made by tool grinding specialists a couple times. The cutter you describe would be no problem, just too expensive for fixing one bike. It'd only be worth it if you had a stack of those frames to do.
It could also be done with cheap generic single-point boring bar in a lathe or boring head on a mill, but the fixturing to hold the frame rigidly and in perfect alignment would be non-trivial. That's the way I would go if I had to machine one frame, but I can see spending half a day making the fixture and 'indicating it in'.
It would have to be some very valuable frame to be worth that. To quote Sam Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction, "We'd have to be talkin' about one charming [expletive deleted] pig. I mean, he'd have to be 10 times more charming than that Arnold on Green Acres."
Mark B
Shops I worked at had custom cutters made by tool grinding specialists a couple times. The cutter you describe would be no problem, just too expensive for fixing one bike. It'd only be worth it if you had a stack of those frames to do.
It could also be done with cheap generic single-point boring bar in a lathe or boring head on a mill, but the fixturing to hold the frame rigidly and in perfect alignment would be non-trivial. That's the way I would go if I had to machine one frame, but I can see spending half a day making the fixture and 'indicating it in'.
It would have to be some very valuable frame to be worth that. To quote Sam Jackson's character in Pulp Fiction, "We'd have to be talkin' about one charming [expletive deleted] pig. I mean, he'd have to be 10 times more charming than that Arnold on Green Acres."
Mark B
Nevertheless, I am trying to convince my friend not to part out the frame and fork for the convenience of shipping. Somebody will want to get involved in this thing, and I think it's the right thing to make that a possibility for the person who wishes to do so.
I do have a thing for having all the tools that can do a job though; it's a fascinating area to discuss.
-Kurt
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cudak888 Kurt, nice little frame you have over there, if your friend ever decides to make something proper out of it, there are a few headsets in Italy for sale, prices between ~50-100 euro.
https://www.subito.it/biciclette/ser...-463285928.htm
eBay - serie sterzo Corsa/R Bianchi Nos
I don't say that it is easy to convince them to take detail pics, measure stuff (reliably) or to ship, but some of them are nice and helpful.
Just an idea....
https://www.subito.it/biciclette/ser...-463285928.htm
eBay - serie sterzo Corsa/R Bianchi Nos
I don't say that it is easy to convince them to take detail pics, measure stuff (reliably) or to ship, but some of them are nice and helpful.
Just an idea....
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cudak888 any news on this beauty?
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cudak888 any news on this beauty?
We've talked some bikes since, but he hasn't come to pick it up yet.
-Kurt
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I got it.
The white paint was promptly stripped off today.
The one thing that rather surprises me is that this was clearly intended from the factory to have chrome seat tube panels, which - far as I can tell - was never a detail on this era of Campione del Mondo, Yet, the second-tier cups suggest that it's not a Specialissima. Is there a model in between these two I'm not aware of?
My ears are open to the Bianchi experts.
I was shocked to find the lug chrome survived beautifully underneath it all.
My 1-1/8" frame blocks arrive later this week. I know frame blocks are not intended for this purpose, but it's the only thing that might roll this out.
Seatlug is clearly intended for full paint:
Not sure if this is the bare steel or a bit of the base nickel layer. I'm betting nickel.
The transition between the area roughed for paint and the seattube bands:
While the murky, light green Celeste-looking color is probably the original, there was a deep medium teal on top of it which also looks period. Wouldn't be surprised regardless which happens to be the original. The blue wiped away very quickly from the green. I wouldn't be surprised if that's original Celeste.
-Kurt
The white paint was promptly stripped off today.
The one thing that rather surprises me is that this was clearly intended from the factory to have chrome seat tube panels, which - far as I can tell - was never a detail on this era of Campione del Mondo, Yet, the second-tier cups suggest that it's not a Specialissima. Is there a model in between these two I'm not aware of?
My ears are open to the Bianchi experts.
I was shocked to find the lug chrome survived beautifully underneath it all.
My 1-1/8" frame blocks arrive later this week. I know frame blocks are not intended for this purpose, but it's the only thing that might roll this out.
Seatlug is clearly intended for full paint:
Not sure if this is the bare steel or a bit of the base nickel layer. I'm betting nickel.
The transition between the area roughed for paint and the seattube bands:
While the murky, light green Celeste-looking color is probably the original, there was a deep medium teal on top of it which also looks period. Wouldn't be surprised regardless which happens to be the original. The blue wiped away very quickly from the green. I wouldn't be surprised if that's original Celeste.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 06-01-23 at 08:49 PM.
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The one thing that rather surprises me is that this was clearly intended from the factory to have chrome seat tube panels, which - far as I can tell - was never a detail on this era of Campione del Mondo, Yet, the second-tier cups suggest that it's not a Specialissima. Is there a model in between these two I'm not aware of?
There's a guy on CR who used to sell Bianchis in the '60s, I could ask him.
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Yes, semantics. This is a Team Model, which may or may not be a team ridden bike. It was a model sold to the public, and at least in the early 60's in the US was an upcharge over the Specialissima. It was also the only model in the early-mid 60's sold in the US in Celeste, the Specialissima's were only imported in other colors.
But basically it was the same frame as the Specialissima, but the Team model had no exposed chrome "socks" on the stays and fork, and had a decal instead of a head-badge. Which makes this one a little odd having the exposed chrome for the stays and fork. Which the seller confirmed was evident before the refinish, as well as there being no holes for a head-badge.
But as far as I'm concerned there's no "absolutes" for Bianchi, just good guesses. This may be a very first year Specialissima?
But basically it was the same frame as the Specialissima, but the Team model had no exposed chrome "socks" on the stays and fork, and had a decal instead of a head-badge. Which makes this one a little odd having the exposed chrome for the stays and fork. Which the seller confirmed was evident before the refinish, as well as there being no holes for a head-badge.
But as far as I'm concerned there's no "absolutes" for Bianchi, just good guesses. This may be a very first year Specialissima?
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Here's mine for points of comparison:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hudson...h/52930036776/
My headset internals are not marked with <C>, so probably the cheepo version: the bottom element rotates with the fork, and the top
knurled locknut has only two holes.
I found and bought a NOS Bianchi headset on Italian eBay the other day- has v-shaped races and marked Bianchi. I'll see if it fits when it arrives.
One of the experts on the Registro Storico Cicli - R.S.C. Facebook page mentioned documented evidence that the Reparto Corse workshop siwtched
from an older style headset to the Campagnolo headset in 1961 FWIW
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hudson...h/52930036776/
My headset internals are not marked with <C>, so probably the cheepo version: the bottom element rotates with the fork, and the top
knurled locknut has only two holes.
I found and bought a NOS Bianchi headset on Italian eBay the other day- has v-shaped races and marked Bianchi. I'll see if it fits when it arrives.
One of the experts on the Registro Storico Cicli - R.S.C. Facebook page mentioned documented evidence that the Reparto Corse workshop siwtched
from an older style headset to the Campagnolo headset in 1961 FWIW
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Now, I'm no gugie and don't deserve the honorary title of "bike butcher" by any means, but "conniving cold-setter" suits me just fine.
-Kurt
I'm thinking that JA Stein has almost the right tool for the roll out job. I'm thinking of contacting him to make one of these without the knurls:
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Here's mine for points of comparison:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hudson...h/52930036776/
My headset internals are not marked with <C>, so probably the cheepo version: the bottom element rotates with the fork, and the top
knurled locknut has only two holes.
I found and bought a NOS Bianchi headset on Italian eBay the other day- has v-shaped races and marked Bianchi. I'll see if it fits when it arrives.
One of the experts on the Registro Storico Cicli - R.S.C. Facebook page mentioned documented evidence that the Reparto Corse workshop siwtched
from an older style headset to the Campagnolo headset in 1961 FWIW
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hudson...h/52930036776/
My headset internals are not marked with <C>, so probably the cheepo version: the bottom element rotates with the fork, and the top
knurled locknut has only two holes.
I found and bought a NOS Bianchi headset on Italian eBay the other day- has v-shaped races and marked Bianchi. I'll see if it fits when it arrives.
One of the experts on the Registro Storico Cicli - R.S.C. Facebook page mentioned documented evidence that the Reparto Corse workshop siwtched
from an older style headset to the Campagnolo headset in 1961 FWIW
I'm thinking that JA Stein has almost the right tool for the roll out job. I'm thinking of contacting him to make one of these without the knurls:
Either way, if the price is right, I'd be interested in the smoothed roller variant if you can convince them to make one. They might do a batch if we're not the only two.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 06-04-23 at 11:03 PM.
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The problem I see, though, is that the tool is designed to be held in a vise. Not sure how you'd do that. I've used aluminum frame blocks before to roll out most of a bulge like that. I do like your patent-pending bar dingus you're using.
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Note that the bottom cup/race is round vs squarish as on the 1971 Bianchi above. Prior to about 1961, Bianchis with integrated headsets had a round bottom cup/race, and
a top lock nut with two holes rather than four. Top tier vs cheepo? Or maybe newest/latest/greatest vs somewhat obsolete? I'm way further down this rabbit hole than I've ever been
researching my mystery Bianchi, and that's sayin' something as I'm pretty OCD about these things...
a top lock nut with two holes rather than four. Top tier vs cheepo? Or maybe newest/latest/greatest vs somewhat obsolete? I'm way further down this rabbit hole than I've ever been
researching my mystery Bianchi, and that's sayin' something as I'm pretty OCD about these things...
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I got the bottom cup/race out of mine with a length of 3/4" sched. 40 PVC. Tapped gently, working my way around the circumference- easy as she goes.
Came out eventually- slick as a whistle...
Came out eventually- slick as a whistle...
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Cleaned up the fork.
"Does this derailer make my frame look Huffy?"
AdventureManCO
Mapping out the master plan. I think I might keep those Belliri bars. Thank you nlerner for the drivetrain bits.
Anyone have a pair of Stronglight 49D arms they're willing to part with?
Wouldn't one be able to sandwich the tool at 90 degrees to the jaws at the end of a vise? Might be unwieldy, but doable.
-Kurt
"Does this derailer make my frame look Huffy?"
AdventureManCO
Mapping out the master plan. I think I might keep those Belliri bars. Thank you nlerner for the drivetrain bits.
Anyone have a pair of Stronglight 49D arms they're willing to part with?
"It works on diameters from 7/8″ to 1.5″ "
The problem I see, though, is that the tool is designed to be held in a vise. Not sure how you'd do that. I've used aluminum frame blocks before to roll out most of a bulge like that. I do like your patent-pending bar dingus you're using.
The problem I see, though, is that the tool is designed to be held in a vise. Not sure how you'd do that. I've used aluminum frame blocks before to roll out most of a bulge like that. I do like your patent-pending bar dingus you're using.
-Kurt
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Blocks arrived.
Here are the results. Not perfect, but I can definitely work with this.
Note the line that looks like a crack is the witness mark from squeezing the blocks onto the chrome surface.
I can work with this. It'll take a tiny cheat of filler to look right, but it'll save the tube, the chrome, and everything else; I'm definitely not willing to go that far down the rabbit hole with this one when the frame is straight and a bit of filler will do.
-Kurt
Here are the results. Not perfect, but I can definitely work with this.
Note the line that looks like a crack is the witness mark from squeezing the blocks onto the chrome surface.
I can work with this. It'll take a tiny cheat of filler to look right, but it'll save the tube, the chrome, and everything else; I'm definitely not willing to go that far down the rabbit hole with this one when the frame is straight and a bit of filler will do.
-Kurt
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Wow! When I saw the original post, I thought: "OK, he will be able to make this ridable, but the dent will still be noticeable." I stand corrected, that looks really good! It's great to see the full process on how you addressed this.
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I've had varying success with frame blocks for this purpose, though in all fairness, they were never meant for this purpose in the first place. The screws in particular aren't for cranking the blocks together, or you'll strip the threads out of them
Nevertheless, the blocks do an excellent job of lowering the high spots. They are not really capable of "popping" out the low areas though - I've yet to have success in that respect - and I dare say gugie's idea of a modified Stein tool might not have any additional success. Come to think of it, I wonder if the three specific points of pressure vs. the uniform pressure of the blocks might cause unintended divoting.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 06-06-23 at 02:01 PM.
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Check!
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Enjoying the GA coast all year long!
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Thanks for visiting my website: www.freewheelspa.com
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Fantastic! One thing off the list.
Now for the 650B's and a 36 hole FW hub shell which should be elusive enough on its own. Wonder if I could make this even more difficult on myself and find a Sturmey FB hub shell. In 36h.
I'm unicorn hunting for no good reason. Again.
-Kurt
Now for the 650B's and a 36 hole FW hub shell which should be elusive enough on its own. Wonder if I could make this even more difficult on myself and find a Sturmey FB hub shell. In 36h.
I'm unicorn hunting for no good reason. Again.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 06-06-23 at 09:15 PM.
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