bbbean 

There is a difference between "not a crime" and "legal." You may be asked to leave private property at any time, and your failure to do so will constitute trespassing.

practical

Do you post your land? Why? In Vermont, most of the land is not posted. Some is posted but most not. It annoys me when the land is posted as it is probably also enrolled in the "land use appraisal" system where the land is taxed at its use value rather than it's market value. This is a big tax break that causes other people's property tax to be higher. Do you have that in MO.?

practical

That is scary. I guess I live in a different country as that sounds totally alien to me. Not saying that no one has issues with drugs (they do) or that there is no crime (there is), but nothing like you describe. Stuff is left outside. doors are often not locked, land is usually not posted. People are not afraid and almost no one carries a gun.

Rob_E

1) The Missouri law is an example. Not every state will have the exact law on the books, so even if 569.150 is interpreted exactly as you say, it can't be assumed to be the same in every state.

2) I'm not sure you're correctly interpreting 569.150. 2nd degree trespass requires that you "unlawfully enter" the property. However I can find nowhere that states that simply setting foot on private property without permission is unlawful. The "absolute liability" doesn't mean stepping on private property is unlawful even if you didn't mean to. It means that being on private property unlawfully is still a crime -- well, not really since Missouri state law defines a crime and an infraction as separate categories, so an infraction is not a crime -- so it's still an infraction, even if you didn't knowingly do it unlawfully. So if Mr. Jones says, "You cannot stay on my land." and so you head five miles down the road, and step into the woods to pee, and it turns out that was also Mr. Jones' land, that's 2nd degree trespass. Or if you pull your gear into the woods after dark, and fail to see the purple marks, you might be able to talk your way out of a 1st degree trespass charge, but not a 2nd degree charge.

Again. I'm have no legal background. I'm just trying to interpret the law as written. If you have a legal background, your interpretation may be correct. I did a cursory search to find out if there were any easy examples of 569.150 being applied. The closest I could find was a case where the defendants tried to argue the 2nd degree trespass charge, but failed because they had been asked to leave, and refused, and were, therefore, clearly there unlawfully. I also found reference to the fact that a trespassing infraction could only enforced in response to a signed complaint from the landowner, but I couldn't find the legal justification for that statement. I did find some notes from when 569.150 was first enacted as a law, where it was noted that the law was added with the assumption that no prosecutor would bring charges against "innocuous" land use. Of course the notes are also not the law.

At any rate, I don't feel the need to keep researching the laws of a state I've never been to. If you can find examples of your interpretation of the law being upheld, it might be interesting. But it also seems that by that same interpretation, if you walk up to the front door of a house to ask permission to camp in the woods next door, you are also in violation of 569.150.

At any rate, the discussion is getting silly because I'm not even saying that you are wrong, just that it may not be clear cut, and there may be valid interpretations other than yours. Meanwhile you are certain that anyone who questions your opinions is wrong, so there's no middle ground to be had there.

Rob_E

No one is arguing otherwise.

indyfabz

I also prefer the amenities, like water on tap, a toilet (pit or otherwise) and a picnic table to cook on. My first tour was a small, organized group tour across the U.S. For safety reasons, we were not allowed to use lit stoves on tables, although that rule was sometimes not enforced. Cooking on the ground could be a PITA. I remember the first time I had to cook the group dinner with my assigned partner. More than halfway through brining the pasta water to a boil the pot toppled over due to soft, uneven ground and wind. We had to start over. I also like to have a bear box or some other convenient place (e.g., a restroom) to store food in bear country. My bad bear experience last month really drove that home.


While I have had some experiences with drunks, they have been few and far between enough to not leave a bad taste in my mouth. One in Canada was actually somewhat amusing.

jamawani 

Those "bad bears"!
I am sorry that your bear was not well-behaved.
30 years ago, bears were much more polite.

Rob_E

Yikes. I agree on all the amenities that an official campground affords. I stayed at at a "semi-official" campground in bear country, that had no amenities, but it did have a discarded refrigerator on the property, which I made use of as a bear box. Didn't stop me from having the **** scared out of me when I woke up to find a large bear hanging out a little ways down the shore. But he didn't get my food.

I have no general objection to drunks, and have been on both sides of that coin, but some places are more likely than others to have a "party" atmosphere rather than a mellow, "enjoying the outdoors" atmosphere. And sometimes you just want to sleep. Around home, I tend to know which are which, but when traveling, sometimes it's just a matter of luck. I think my biggest issue with current campgrounds is that many of them cater to the RV crowd almost to the exclusion of tent camping. I'd rather fall asleep to people enjoying the fire, and the beer, a little too much than to the sound of generators. It makes me understand the inclination to pop off the road into the woods, rather than head to the nearest campground.

bbbean 

In places, yes, because I don't want people using it without permission. Rather than give you a laundry list of problems we have had with trespassers, suffice it to say that we want to control who is on our land and what they are doing there.

There are two easy solutions:

1) Ask permission, or
2) Buy some land and use it however you want.

If you would like to have a conversation about land values, tax rates, the role of agriculture in the economy, etc., this is hardly the forum, and it doesn't address the OP's question. In another forum, I'd gladly discuss these topics with you. I will note that if you have a problem with Vermont taxing schemes, there are probably a host of local and state legislators who would love to get into the nuts and bolts of teh issue with you.

indyfabz

I stayed at a commercial campground behind FIO Mckean while touring across PA back last month. (That's the facility where actor Wesley Snipes did his two years for tax evasion.) I kept my food, etc., in the bathroom because there were signs up about a bear having been in camp. Despite this problem, there were no bear resistant dumpsters. When I woke up around 4 a.m. and went to toss some papers I saw the dumpsters had been raided by a bear. There was a huge pile of scat amidst the trash. There was a smaller pile maybe 100' from my tent, if that far. As I was leaving I wheeled my bike to front of the office, which was right where the dumpsters were. Leaned the bike against a bench to put on my helmet and turn on my lights. That's when I heard the sound of clinking bottles and cans. Looked over to see a large black bear emerge from between the two dumpsters. I estimate conservatively that was at least 350 lbs. We were maybe 20'-25' apart. I backed away slowly. He walked in a separate direction. Aide from his initial garbage clinking, the entire encounter was silent and seemed to happen in slow motion. Very surreal and not a great way to start the morning.

Rob_E

That'll do it. I spent a largely sleepless night hanging in my hammock tent in the sketchiest hanging job I've ever done: one end tied to a tree and the other end running over a sawhorse on top of a picnic table. Two legs of the sawhorse lifted up a little every time there was a big gust of wind, and it was a super windy night. So I was convinced for the first half of the night that I was going to hit the ground at any minute. After I decided that if it hadn't happened in the first few hours, I was probably safe, I decided to listen for what noises might be the black bear that the campground owner had told me about. What she didn't tell me was the bear's size, so I eventually talked myself into imagining a small, cute bear, and got a few hours of uneasy sleep. But I was up the moment the sky got a little bit light, and there, several yards away, was a not-at-all-small-and-cuddly, 300+ pound black bear. He started walking towards me, and it took some shouting and clapping to get him to leave, and I packed up camp faster than I ever had. Called the campground owner from 10 or 20 miles down the road to thank her for her hospitality, and to politely decline her invitation to stop by for a coffee on the way out, since I had fled in a hurry over an hour before.

saddlesores

the only real issue i have is this:

quibbling about terminology....crime vs. infraction.....doesn't change the fact that
private property is private. it belongs to someone, and that someone is not you.
you wanna use someone else's property? just ask. other than a business owner
refusing (liability problems), i've never, ever heard of any cycle tourist being turned
down.

Eggman84

You do realize that the OP has probably long ago moved on, and this thread is now just arguing over what does or does not constituent trespassing (can anyone remember why that even came up in the first place), and whether Missouri is like the fictional region portrayed in the movie Deliverance only with drug addled perpetrators today. This thread took a turn for the worst days ago, and is just going downhill if that is even possible. Oh, and how do you know if "unimproved" land is private if its not posted. Are you now required to go to the county courthouse before stepping off the road. I only keep coming back to see if it can get any more irrelevant. Carry on!

skookum

That is what the internet is for. So you can go off on tangents and argue about irrelevant things. I'm waiting for the part where we discuss when it is appropriate to shoot trespassers and when it isn't.

indyfabz

Only during official hunting season and with any required license.

Eggman84

Thanks for the much needed humor. You have restored my faith in mankind.

jonc123

I have crossed the river on the ferry many times as a child. I'm almost 50, but you could do the math, too young to remember. In my youth I spent summers at Cottonwood Point with my Grandparents.

Yes, I have shelled thousands of pecans of which they were plenty ( I hated it at the time, now I miss it). You'll hear of the word "Heartland" all over the place. I know where it is for me. My Mother and Father are both from Pemiscot County (Caruthersville and Cottonwood Point). In fact, all of my Grandparents and Great Grandparents are buried in Pemiscot County.

KD5NRH

What's that front rack on your 520? Been mostly happy with the Nashbar one on my 7100, but sometimes I do wish for a top shelf on it.

mev

It is a Surly front rack.

indyfabz

If you don't mind the cost, the Nitto Big front rack sold through Rivendell is super strong and lighter than the Surly. I have carried a large bundle of firewood on it several times.

J.Higgins 

Wait... Its not?

HONEY! GET THE SHOVEL!

Sharpshin

Might be worth considering this from the landowner's viewpoint....

...a complete stranger, most often some guy, arrives when its getting dark and just presumes to set up shop on a location well known and familiar to you as your own personal property.

Anybody here got a front lawn? How about you get home to find some dude you don't know camped out on your front lawn and relaxing in your driveway.

Now, imagine there had been several prior incidences of theft from your yard of materials and equipment essential to your livelihood, all of which losses you had been obliged to make up out-of-pocket and you were struggling to begin with. What would be your first reaction then?

I have stealth camped a number of times, but always on public right-of-ways (and once along a rail line) and I certainly ain't about to jump a fence.

Mike

DGibson

This might have been mentioned and I missed it skimming the thread. Here in Michigan (yes, still the midwest) it is legal to stealth (called "dispersed") camp on state land, which there is a lot of, as long as it is not a designated campground (for which you have to pay).

DNR - Dispersed Camping

And as for the rest of this thread...just ask the property owner. I have yet to have one tell me to bugger off.

Doug64

If we get into a tight spot and need to find a place to camp, I try to use public land. If there is no one around to ask about camping on private land, I look for a park, fairgrounds, public fishing access point, rest area, or trailhead. If there is someone there, such as a maintenance person, I'll ask them. If camping is not permitted at that location they will usually tell you where you can camp. If no one is there, I'll take a chance, but we are not "stealthy" about it.

At this rest area located between Shashoni and Casper, Wyoming there were not many places to wild camp, and we spent a
couple hours helping out a stranded women, so we decided to just camp there. "No Camping" signs were posted in the area. We talked to one of the people servicing the restrooms, and picking up trash, and they said that they did not have the authority to OK camping there. We were not "stealthy", but we were discrete when we set up the tent. About an hour after dark a police officer came up to our tents (another cyclist we had seen earlier had joined us) shined his flashlight on the tents and walked away without bothering us. Note the flags. We had been riding into a headwind all day and it was still 50 miles to Casper.



Another time in Idaho we needed to find a place for the night. There was a small park next to the County Fairgrounds, so we pitched our tent and were hanging out when a maintenance worker showed up. She told us that it would be OK to camp in the park, but the irrigation sprinklers come on at 10:00 pm. She suggested moving across the road to the fairground where she was fairly certain no one would bother us. There was a 4H horse show that evening and dozens of cars drove by our tent. Someone came over and invited us to the show. I'm sure by the next morning every one in the small town knew we were there. The folks at the cafe we went to for breakfast asked if we had a good night The point is: use public land and don't try to be "stealthy".

We originally had the tent set up in this little park.



Later, on the advice of a city worker, we moved to the fair grounds.

robow

Nice photos as usual Doug. And I agree with you but...... when I'm by myself, I'm treated somewhat differently than I am when touring with my wife. As a couple we must appear to be more harmless.