Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Square Un-Tapered BB Spindles?

Search
Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Square Un-Tapered BB Spindles?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 10-30-22, 10:00 AM
  #26  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,194

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1565 Post(s)
Liked 1,296 Times in 866 Posts
Originally Posted by oneclick
The shim WON'T go in after you put the axle in the hole. If you make a bevel it will go in as far as the bevel; no further.
The crank WON'T go on after you put the shim on the axle. If you make a bevel it will go on as far as the bevel; no further.

If you do get the end of a shim shoved in to that bevel, tightening the bolt won't do anything to the shim unless you make the crank move on the axle. If it does move, it will push the shim along with it.

And with a straight bore and straight axle, changing the position of the crank on the axle (by tightening the bolt) does nothing to decrease any existing clearance between the crank and the axle. An interference fit requires a negative clearance (a loose fit is by definition positive clearance).

All materials, including steel and aluminum, are elastic materials. Depending on how much bolt tension can be applied, one can definitely get the square bore to stretch enough to accomodate a pair of sufficiently-thick shim's, likely achieving near-equivalence to the interference that one gets when installing normal square-taper cranks on tapered spindles.
The only issue might be having a sufficient range of shim thicknesses to experiment with, of sufficient material strength not to tear as the crankarm gets forced over the spindle.

And if the spindle end is chamfered by what I'll call an average amount, then perhaps no chamfer at all might be needed at the hole's entry.

I've twice mentioned that the shim is to be fitted into the hole before pressing in the spindle, with sufficient excess length of shim material to prevent it's moving away from the engaging parts. This now my third mention!
dddd is offline  
Old 10-30-22, 11:05 AM
  #27  
oneclick 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 2,820
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,328 Times in 784 Posts
It does not matter whether you try to put the shim between the assembled crank-and-axle, or try to assemble the crank-and-axle with the shim placed on one of them. If the shim is thick enough to do what you want, it's too thick to go inbetween. Placed as you describe, the crank won't go on.

But go ahead and try, it'll save us reading ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hyou typing.
oneclick is offline  
Old 10-30-22, 11:21 AM
  #28  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,476
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 3,376 Times in 1,580 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888
Instead of a solid shim, has anyone considered using a liquid shim, such as Loctite 609 (fills gaps up to 0.01") or 603 (gills gaps up to 0.015" + for oily surfaces)?

-Kurt
I suggested Loctite 603 bearing retainer compound near the start of the thread. Doesn't seem to be much interest in discussing that sort of solution. Glad that I didn't bother mentioning JB Weld.

Steve in Peoria
steelbikeguy is offline  
Likes For steelbikeguy:
Old 10-30-22, 02:06 PM
  #29  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,194

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1565 Post(s)
Liked 1,296 Times in 866 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
I suggested Loctite 603 bearing retainer compound near the start of the thread. Doesn't seem to be much interest in discussing that sort of solution. Glad that I didn't bother mentioning JB Weld.

Steve in Peoria
I wouldn't under-estimate Loctite's ability to fix metal in position.
And you can always still remove it (if you can apply heat to the assembly without damaging any plastic or paint).

I installed a left pedal into a stripped crankarm on my MTB using copious Red Loctite and it has lasted years of occasional hard, offroad riding.

The rear hub on the same bike is steel, and due to impact damage to the shipped bike the axle was bent and the driveside bearing cup left quite loose in the shell.
While replacing the axle, I wicked a generous bead of Red Loctite into the gap between the cup and the hubshell, from the inside of the hubshell.
I assembled the axle assembly and heated the hub with a hair drier, after which I have been riding it for over five years now. The wheel is now on the green bike, still going strong. The cheap hubshell and cup were all made from steel sheet, so not the most rigid parts, yet the Loctite holds strong and stays put.
I used the red Loctite between the engine case and main crankshaft bearings of my Kawasaki H2 dragster after the cases became subtly enlarged from the high-rpm pounding, and the red layer of Loctite appeared where I'd put it every time that I split the cases after dozens of runs.

So I expect that if the Loctite can be made to exclude most of the air in the joint, i.e. particularly if it's a "penetrating grade"(?), it stands a very good chance of working perfectly in this application.

Wheel came on this K-Mart bike, which also had the stripped left crankarm (up-graded crankset, found discarded):


Ended up on this Huffy, now five years on:

Last edited by dddd; 10-30-22 at 02:25 PM.
dddd is offline  
Old 10-30-22, 09:58 PM
  #30  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,513

Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,395 Times in 2,092 Posts
Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
I suggested Loctite 603 bearing retainer compound near the start of the thread. Doesn't seem to be much interest in discussing that sort of solution. Glad that I didn't bother mentioning JB Weld.

Steve in Peoria
Whoops, missed it.

I've used it before, and I honestly think it might have quite a bit of merit here. Super strong stuff if the interference fit is just right.

Anyone with a Viscount willing to give it a try? I only have the arms, not the rest, or I'd volunteer.

-Kurt
__________________












cudak888 is offline  
Old 10-31-22, 03:04 AM
  #31  
oneclick 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 2,820
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1106 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,328 Times in 784 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888
Whoops, missed it.

I've used it before, and I honestly think it might have quite a bit of merit here. Super strong stuff if the interference fit is just right.

Anyone with a Viscount willing to give it a try? I only have the arms, not the rest, or I'd volunteer.

-Kurt
It may be superstrong for a plastic but it is still on the order of one tenth that of aluminium; considering that an 8mm grade 8.8 bolt tightened to the appropriate torque generates on a 4 degree included taper a compressive force somewhere around 50,000 lbs, and a generous estimate of the area of the flats is two inches, the result is quite likely to exceed the quoted compressive strength of circa 3000 psi.
oneclick is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.