agmetal

I have a mid-'70s Motobecane Grand Jubilé that I'm refurbishing, and I'm thinking about putting a modern freewheel on it for the improved shifting performance. It's a 6-speed SunTour freewheel, and with the amount of space available to the right of it on this 120mm-spaced frame, I assume it's the narrower "Ultra 6" spacing. Is there anything out there now that would let me put a modern freewheel on here without having to go to a 5-speed one?

jeirvine 

I don't think there is a modern narrow-spaced 6sp FW. If the Suntour is in good shape, it's probably worth just keeping, assuming the ratio is useful.
-J

ThermionicScott 

I wonder if anyone has tried taking apart IRD 5/6 speed freewheels and assembling the 6-speed cogs onto the 5-speed unit with thinner spacers... can't think of anyone making modern freewheels in ultra spacing otherwise.

dddd

Changing the spacing on freewheels is trickier than on cassettes. Freewheels have a stepped body where the step corresponds to the exact position of one of the cogs. Changing the spacing would mean that the first one of the smaller-ID cogs would be trying to fit on the larger-ID portion of the body.

Now I have made an Ultra-5 freewheel as a retrofit on a 4-speed1950's bike, but I had the middle Uniglide cog available to me in both the "small form" and "large-form" ID styles.

I've also made Ultra-6 freewheels out of a Dura-Ace Uniglide 7s freewheel, which shifted quite well indeed for that friction-shifted setup.
The smallest (12t) cog was simply removed, and this small cog's externally-threaded "snout" was replaced by an O-ring in order to keep the freewheel body sealed as it was before I removed the smallest cog.

I could have used Hyperglide freewheel cogs on that Dura-Ace 7s freewheel body as I've done with several 7s freewheel builds, noting that the two smallest cogs on these freewheels are threaded and so will always be Uniglide. If the smallest one is removed however, then only the smallest cog would be Uniglide, and so shifting would be more STI-friendly.

MarcoBianchi

https://www.veloduo.co.uk/blogs/news...hub-conversion.
Could this be an option ?

fietsbob

120? its 5 speed.(or 1). most freewheels use hyperglide style teeth on the cogs now... they spread the frames to 126 for 6th
you can too, but why stop there.. 130 gets you into wide enough for all the new stuff..

You could convert to Sturmey Archer's 8 speed internal gear hub, they have a model narrowed down to 120 wide..






....

JaccoW

Or get a 120 mm SunXCD cassette freehub and make your own custom 6-speed cassette.

smontanaro 

Over on the ibob list, Bill Lindsay was experimenting with eight of ten in 120mm or something similar. Might be worth checking out.

pastorbobnlnh 

As others have said, there is no modern ultra or narrow spaced 6 speed freewheel for 120mm spacing. As best I know, only Suntour, Regina and Atom produced narrow spaced 6 speed freewheels. Since Suntour shifted the best of the three, it is worth servicing and maintaining your Suntour. Many of us have found that a modern 8 or even a 9 speed chain improves shifting on the narrow spaced freewheels. Happy riding!

agmetal

Thanks, everyone! My freewheel is actually in excellent shape, I was mostly thinking in terms of the improvement in shifting afforded by shaped teeth, but it sounds like I should just stick with what I've got for now.

RobbieTunes

This +1

Salamandrine 

Yeah, vintage freewheels were not easily respaced, since the cogs were threaded onto a specific spot. There were a couple that were partly or mostly splined, but even those wouldn't be rebuildable to ultra spacing.

The most practical option is to find a vintage Suntour Ultra freewheel in good condition, and use a modern chain. A chain is half the equation for smooth shifting.

Second option would be a new rear wheel with a SunXCD 120 hub, as has been mentioned. You would have to custom build the cassette. FWIW Sun M13 rims look just like Rigida 1320 if you take off the stickers, but they are stronger.

3rd option would be to respace the frame and go to 126 OLD rear end. Again, that would mean new wheels, though you could probably swap axles (and likely cones) and redish the rear wheel if you wanted to keep it authentic (and cheap).



Do you happen to remember the model names for Atom and Regina narrow freewheels? Just wondering... I really only remember Suntour Ultra, because that's what we sold at the LBS where I worked. The Suntours were by far the most common 'narrow' freewheel. I vaguely recall Atom had something, but not what it was.

MB33 

Atom's narrow freewheel was called "Compact".

Choke 

The Atoms are the "77 Compact".

smontanaro 

(I stand corrected about Atom...)

I have seen Atoms on eBay. As I recall, they are generally referred to as "narrow" "compact". I don't know if that's a brand name or just what the seller called them to distinguish them from wide spaced freewheels.

I pilfered some Regina spacing images from an eBay seller a few months ago when I was considering construction of a Regina seven-speed freewheel and wanted to know what went where. It looks as if the narrow-spaced six-speed freewheel would be CX-S:

SurferRosa

I have IRD 5-speeds on two bikes, and I don't notice much difference between them and my 6- and 7-speed bikes. The biggest difference I notice is fit, cockpit, etc.

From now on, though, I usually cold set my 120mm keepers to 126mm. It's just a simple thing to do, and I usually have to check the bike alignment anyway. I did this last with my '60 paramount. Those one or two extra gears don't offer a major change, but I do like having them available. And, I think, new freewheel selection is slightly better for 126mm bikes (vs 120mm).

Salamandrine 

Thanks for the info everyone. Compact, right.

I stumbled into the Regina Futura while trying to look it up. I had forgotten 'bout those completely, and I'm pretty sure I used to have one.

Sorin

Hello guys ,

Anyone have an iddea how to modify this normal 6 speed Suntour to fit my 120mm Peugeot frame ?
I have found a nice condition Suntour New Winner 13-26T , 6 speed available and i am thinking to buy it for my Peugeot restauration project.
- i have a few option - find necesary spacers - but in Europe is extremly hard to find them
- remove 1 sprocket
- file the available spacers ???
- cold set the frame
Honestly last option i want to avoid it ..
What do you think?
Regards, Sorin.

esasjl

I find friction shifting with modern sprockets is different to that with pre-index sprockets, but I wouldn't say it is better. I have an Ultra 6 New Winner with 120 mm OLD and an Ultra 7 New Winner Pro with 130 mm OLD that allows minimal wheel dish. The shifting on both is excellent even with the gear range at maximum (13-34 and 12-34, my RD doesn't quite take the 38) and SunTour freewheels allow a great deal of customisation. I've found that if using an indexable rear derailleur where the top jockey wheel has some end-float to aid index shifting it is better in friction mode to replace with a jockey wheel with no end-float.

I'd keep the SunTour!

oneclick 

The Nexus7 is (without the roller-brake) also 120mm; and although its range is not as wide, reliability/availability/price may argue in its favour, as might the greater range of sprockets to fit (SA are unique) and the direct drive in a middle gear rather than the bottom.

Road Fan

I can't see if you're interested in indexing, but I assume not. You just want to put on a freewheel which fits your wheel and frame, and has a modernized tooth design which will shift well. If your frame width is 120 mm you can traditionally get a standard-spaced 5-speed. I also don't know of a new equivalent of the SunTour Ultra-6 designs, but BITD Sachs also had a very good tooth design, called "ARIS." They were designed for the ARIS indexing system, and the freewheels were very high quality. The ARIS system did not catch hold in the marketplace, but Sachs designed the first Ergopower indexing brake-shift levers sold by Campagnolo, which have a great reputation. I've used them up to 7-speed in friction-shift setups over the past 25 years or so, and they shift very easily. I have a 6-speed which is pretty wide-spaced, and a few 7-s models which are wider.

I wonder if you can buy a Sachs ARIS 6 or 7 with tooth counts in your range, and make up your next freewheel based on that, transferring the Sachs sprockets onto a 5-speed body? However, I can't say it IS possible. Contact "The Freewheel Spa" to find someone who might have tried what you are thinking about.

Charles Wahl

Just personal experience, and maybe inapplicable, but: When I first built a "nice bike" for myself (126 rear spacing), I put a 7-speed Ultra FW on it, with the venerable Sedisport chain (no removable link). They worked great together. Later, I tried to replace the chain with an SRAM PC870 one, and it always had this little "hitch" that I could feel while pedaling; I never figured out conclusively whether it was just a change in the chain generally, or the presence of the removable link -- the FW was nowhere near worn. It bothered me so much that I bought a SunTour 6-speed non-Ultra to replace the 7-speed Ultra. I still have the Sedisport chain somewhere (also not worn out), but I like a clean chain, and since I started buying SRAM ones, I'd never go back to the non-removable kind.

I think there's maybe a good reason that the 6-speed on 5 or 7-speed on 6 Ultra idea didn't catch on. T'were me, I would a) stick with the Ultra as long as you can (people do sell cogs on occasion, and anyway, the difference is not the cogs but the spacing of them), or b) get your rear triangle respaced to 126 or even 128 (could then use a freehub with 130 OLD, or use FWs intended for 126 OLD, like even Hyperglide).

steelbikeguy

For the New Winner freewheel, this chart shows what cog types and spacers are used for the various configurations.


full resolution version: https://live.staticflickr.com/4239/3...f69bc_3k_d.jpg

The 6 speed with normal spacing is in the upper right, and the 5 speed with normal spacing is in the lower right.
The 6 speed uses the E cog in the smallest position, followed by X, T, R, A and A cogs, as you go to the inboard cogs.
The 6 speed uses the FT or BV spacers between the mid cogs, and the BD spacers between the two A cogs. The dimensions for these spacers are shown on the right.
The FT and BV spacers are 1.9mm thick and have an inner diameter of 44mm.

The 5 speed with normal spacing is essentially the same, except that it doesn't use the X cog. Instead, the E cog threads directly onto the freewheel body.
All you have to do is remove the X cog, although that doesn't really permit even gaps between the gear sizes. A different E cog might be enough of a change, or maybe change the E and the T cogs to get a better sequence of gear sizes.
I've got this 5 speed New Winner on my Raleigh International with 120mm spacing, so it does work.

Steve in Peoria

Sorin

steelbikeguy thank you verry much . Freewheel is 13-16 -18-20-23-26 spaced like this :

So my option would be to remove the 16 and go from 13-18 ....hmm, not funny.
And seems can't be transformed in Ultra just by changing the spacers, need some different sprockets type also.

steelbikeguy

hmm.... I always liked the 13-26 six speed, but I think mine were 13-15-17-20-23-26. Going to 14-17-20-23-26 would be a bit more acceptable.

As you note, changing it to an Ultra freewheel could be done, but it gets messy quickly.
Finding a modern 5 speed freewheel seems like it might be easier, or perhaps you will get lucky and find a suitable vintage freewheel?

for what it's worth... I was just tweaking my International and the Campagnolo Nuovo Record derailleur. I had some problems with the derailleur grazing the spokes when on the largest cog. Not sure if that was due to the way the New Winner was spaced or what. I thought about adding a 1mm spacer between the hub and freewheel, but the body would have hit the dropout. I suspect that a Perfect or Pro-Compe might have a narrower body and allow the large cog to be further from the spokes.

Steve in Peoria