oneclick 

My first impression also, but masking the decals? And high-end vintage? All the ghost bikes I've seen were junkers.

He/she/it painted right over dirt - the backside of the front mech cage is *crusty* - and white.

Pedals/cranks are french threads. Net says BB is swiss, I have paint stripper on it now and will know for sure when I get it out.

oneclick 

Ok, everything is off/out now. Frame is 60cm c-c, weighs 2155gm, fork 775gm. Fixed cup was french; and it was a bit of trouble getting it off, had to put it in the vice with a stout washer bolted into the axle under the jaws to hold it in. Stem and seatpost came out no trouble.

There might be quite a few grams of paint, I'll weigh them again when they are bare.

Yeti4lyfe

I have a Dynamax serial number 50 1628

VintageSteelEU

This hurts. If it's painted over the factory paint (as it looks), I would try mineral / white spirits to remove the abomination. With and old / harsh towel and a thin, sharpish piece of wood to scrape it off. Factory paint will be fine, white spirit doesn't affect it, but it does affect a fairly fresh spray paint. It might be a saving grace that it seems the person spray-painting it didn't prepare the surface properly, so the new paint won't probably adhere to the frame that well. As for the exposed metal bits, rims etc. white spirits + crumpled tinfoil should do the trick. Same for the headset, pedals, derailleurs and so on. Fingers crossed the factory paint underneath is in good condition.
Gosh, this is criminal...

Livefish

Still amazes that anyone would do this. Somewhere there's a village missing an idiot. :-\

I think you've got the ID correct. The Nervex lugs and the two black bands on the seat tube mark it as a Motobècane "grand" level bike (Record, Jubilee, Touring) from the early / mid 1970s. If those Campy parts are original, that would almost certainly make it a Grand Record. I've seen a number of these from that era that appear to be original and fitted with Weinmann center-pulls, despite the catalog specs ("subject to change without notice..."). During the parts crunch the Weinmanns should have been infinitely more easy to source than the Universal or Campagnolo parts from the other side of the Alps. Those also look like Atom/Malliard 700 pedals underneath the paint, which would be right for an early 70's Grand Record. The stem and the double brake levers suggest a Grand Touring, but may also be something that was changed or something these DynaMax folks(?) were doing.

Will be curious to see what model decals you find underneath all that muck...

sbrudno

Such misery! Good luck with trying to get it back to reality...

VintageSteelEU

2 years back I got a Motobecane Grand Sprint frame with totally random bits (none of them original and even the headset had incorrect thread). I dated it on 1979, based on catalogues, searching the web etc. The orginal paint was their "champagne gold" with factory decals (including the Grand Sprint one) and also in a very bad condition, so the frame had to be repainted. Anyhow, recently I decided to bring this one back to 1979 and make it all (or nearly all) European, so I decided to do the painting again. Which gave me the opportunity to take clear (ish) photos of all marks and numbers on the frame).
1. Fork tube: stamped with 683, no other markings visible
2. Front dropout: B59 stamped on the left one, no other markings
3. BB shell:
- 1630 stamped on the front
- 7 stamped in the middle near the gear cable guide hole
- underlined 1909 stamped at the back with C (or 8) stamped into it
- 5X stamped at the bottom left side with probably 5 near it
- 50 (or O, or 6) stamped on top of the BB shell, non-drive side
4. Downtube: <888> stamped at the bottom, near the BB shell. This stands for Vitus 888
5. Rear dropouts
- ?69 upper part of the ND side dropout
- ??13344 lower part of the ND side droput
- ???0 (?330 possibly) inside of the DS dropout
6. Lugs
- all lugs and BB shell have C stamped on them
- downtube / head tube lug has underlined BCM stamped in in

rickpaulos

A lot of stamp happy workers in that factory. Note the divots in the bb shell where the chain stays go in. Many mass production frames are assembled in a jig, "Nailed" together while in alignment, then removed for brazing. Raleigh literally used a drill and then a small nail to hold the bits together. They would put small rings of brass in the lug prior to assembly and use wide torches held in place to melt the brass. I'd guess the motobecane method was cheaper and faster. We can see the brass in the lugs suggesting they were brazed in a more typical method. The bb shell and lugs are press steel lugs so they are soft enough to dent or nail through. No cast steel lugs on these cheaper bikes. The factory paint would hide many of those numbers. Interesting archeology revealed by striping the paint. You might consider just clear coating the frame.

VintageSteelEU

I understand manufacturers of tubing (Vitus 888, so Atelieres de la Rive, St Etienne) and lugs (Bocama, Venissieux near Lyon, so just around the corner from St Etienne) stamped whatever their procedure was. Like tubing model on the tubes or angles for the lugs. No idea who made the BB shell, though it seems Motobecane used their own style. And then Motobecane would put their own markings. So yes, there's a lot of numbers on this thing.
The frame is now repainted and is awaiting assembly with late 70's parts (mostly, because it will get new(ish) wheelset, tyres and brake pads). Most of the markings are still visible. The original factory paint was definitely thicker than my paintjob and for sure my skills (and toolset) are no match for original Motobecane paint. But there wasn't other option with this one, especially that I decided against powder-coating it.

awac

Motobécane

Motobécane D47 stamped

Motobécane

Frame and fork only. Gipimme do and fork do, best guess 1977?

awac

Motobécane do1 8?4?416 Gipiemme

Motobécane Fork stamped 64-CP and A37

Motobécane Do2 ???8698


Clean steel nds inside

Clean steel ds inside

Clean steel nds outside

Clean steel ds outside

awac

Motobécane Fork detail

Motobécane Headtube

Motobécane Seat tube

C4? 1977? 1978 had top tube braze ons.

Weight
Fork 0.7kg
Frame 2.2kg

VintageSteelEU

Ah, that's where it went! I had it on my watch list for a while. Congratulations! Fantastic frame for 55 quid Looks like the chain holding nipple has been damaged, so you might want to look into it and send it to a frame builder.
The seller claimed full Reynolds 531, if my memory serves?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm talking rubbish, but I think before 1978 they used the round badge (which would leave marks on the head tube, no sign of which in the photos). So 78 upwards? But then again, the lugs seem to suggest 1977 C4 and I'd go with that as a guess. Decals could be changed / added later. What is important is that this is definitely an upper tier frame.
Later on (78 / 79) C5 and C4 had: 1. differently shaped and brazed seatstay bridge (more decorative with cutout lugs) 2. Cutout seat tube and head tube lugs 3. Cable guides brazed on the BB shell 4. more sophisticated seat tube lug bolt mounting 5. Differently shaped (concave) seatstay tips.

awac

Thank you. Yes, I was quite excited when I seen it....I had spent to much money on eBay recently and almost passed on it...but life is short and fleeting! I have drilled the drop out adjuster. Happy with the result, I got it straight....but dear God it put up a fight! I never liked threaded screws in the drop out, especially non stainless ones! My Gitane has Delrin shaped inserts which the bolt screws into setting the axle placement.

The weight seems to agree with full 531.
I am interested if anyone has views to the badge dating, but you seem to have come to the same date as I have. Now I just have to find the bits....I have some Shimano 600 bits so will probably build up with this and see how that feels. What does D47 stamped on the BB stand for? Also 64-CP and A37? We may never know....

Trying to find 1977 brochure with C4 if you know of one?

The stack height of the fork was very short 34.9mm. I have just had delivered a Motobécane headset which I have posted pictures of the stack height on another post 37.8mm, but race is 26.5mm and fork is 27mm. Sigh. Trip to the metal shop then....

VintageSteelEU

I kept it in the watch list as a reference. Don't have the capacity for another frame at the moment, especially that I have one that will require repairs and that's not going to be cheap.
By dropout adjuster you mean the centering screws? Was it stuck or something? On one Moto where I had them I just left them be with the nylon / delrin half-moon spacers. For another one where I had nylon inserts, I just made Alu ones, which double up as mudguard mounting system.
Anyhow, what I meant as a chain holding (or whatever purpose that thing was supposed to serve) braze on nipple is what should be in place of the hole with a bit of rust around it, just above the drive side dropout. It's not a feature that would be really necessary, but I'd try to figure out how it came off and have a closer look at that area. The rust looks like it's just surface rust, but better to be safe than sorry.

I run one of mine with a mix of 70's and 80's components (indexed drivetrain, Shimano 600EX based). Te other is L'Eroica ready (except for the saddle, which I still need to refurbish). Both ride great. There are slight differences in geometry and one is Reynold 531 tubed, the other Vitus 888, but I'm very happy with both.
There is Velo-pages catalog, but it's the English version. And the links here: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...t-w-links.html Though some of the links seem obsolete.

Yes, Motobecane can have very short stack height from what I read. On the Vitus 888 frame I was forced to use Stronglight P3 (or some variation of thereof) due to some problems with the fork crown race (Motobecane one didn't want to fit). Shimano made HP-6400 and HP-1055 which have a stack height that would be alright (33.5mm), but wasn't able to find French threaded ones within reasonable price range at the time. The Reynolds tubed one had no problems with Motobecane headset. Btw, both bicycles are 57.5cm seat tube height. Perhaps Motobecane used various headset stack heights in various years / on various models?
Anyhow, one thing you might want to check is the bottom bracket thread. If it didn't come with one, you are very likely going to need a Swiss one. IRD makes some conversion cups (and they can be purchased in the UK) to fit their bottom brackets (and probably some more). I've been using their QB55 (so the cheapest one) BB daily for around 2 years now, no problems. And touch wood, hope it stays this way, the retailer I got it from seems to be out of stock when it comes to the correct size for my crankset.

awac

Thank you for reminding me it is not going to be cheap….note to self, hide this forum from the wife…

Not sure of what you mean about chain holding, do you have a photo or diagram? I thought the hole near the drop out matched the one at the top to let any moisture/condensation trapped inside to escape?

Great link thank you.

Yes that little piddly non-stainless bolt whose sole purpose in life is to rust in place and like a lizards tail, snap off to protect it from being pulled out of its little 3mm burrow!

I have taken photos of the Motobécane headset measurements and put them on another post. I had it posted from France, a nice surprise of €8 custom tax on top of postage, I really, really didn’t want brexit!

It came with two bb cups and a crank, not tried it with ball bearings in yet, I have been swearing at 3mm screws in between work! I actually have var Swiss & French thread bottom bracket taps if the thread has any problems.I will look IRD cups up, thanks. I will be going the 600 way.

57.5cm seat tube, my size as well, so if you ever throw those old bikes of yours out, give me a call and I will do you a favour…..!

VintageSteelEU

Customs are one thing, postage charges when it comes to ordering something from the continent are more of a problem, they can sometimes double the price. Will have to bite the bullet sometime to get French threaded pedals.
As for the BB, I think I paid £20 something for the Swiss cups and £33.49 for the IRD QB55. The prices went up a bit since then (£25 cups and £45 BB, SJS Cycles, but don't see the Swiss cups anymore, you'd have to ask their customer service about it). The headset cost me something around £30, I had Cinelli A1 stem and Cinelli Campione Del Mondo handlebars with the frame (the first one, Grand Sprint Vitus 888). Shimano FC 6400 crankset also came with the bike. And some crappy seat post, which I replaced with Sakae Ringyo P6. Some parts I had from another bicycle, but eventually I ended up spending a fortune on vintage components. Somehow without even knowing when I ended up with a boatload of Shimano 1055/56, 600 SIS and 6400 components, more wheelsets / hubs / rims than I can possibly need and very little storage space. Which will come handy when I get back to working on the final frame, because it will get nearly full 6400 gruppo (with 600EX brake levers, Miche Primato seatpost and non-Ultegra headset). I build my own wheels and I mostly use second hand components, so this helps to keep the costs down, but yeah, can be still a bit painful.

I meant the thing below. Though in all fairness, on my other frame, R531, I don't have this nipple as well and it doesn't look like it ever had one (there's a symmetrically placed hole on the other seatstay). On another one (still waiting to be worked on), there is this feature. So no idea what it depended on. The reason I was asking about your frame is that the area underneath that section looks a bit rough. But it's most likely perfectly fine.
The bolt sticking out from the dropout next to the derailleur is part of the centering inserts system I menioned. In this rendition it serves as a mounting bolt for the mudguards (currently off, I'm putting new ones on at the moment).

So, what now? Are you getting it repainted or building up as is?

awac

Yes the headset with postage and now custom charges came to more than I wanted, but the most annoying thing? A guy I know emails me today and tells me he has found in his personal stash a box of 12 french threaded headsets and will email me a photo soon…nooooooo! Apart from it could be cheaper, he will now tempt me to buy some as “just in case” spares…want me to message you if does? Hang on is this even legal, “pushing” bike parts? Lol.

Yes I agree, it does look like something to hang a chain on, I have never had a frame with it myself. Was it an add on or standard?

Come on, some more photos of the bikes!

The plan is to run into debt collecting parts, build it up as a dry build, round the block to test frame straightness (I have used string to check frame but you never know. I had an old Honda 750 I build up once from bits, went down the road and you required two hands on the left bar to hold it in a straight line, strip down again and replaced frame!) frame repairs if required then yes, I will re-paint, which is a shame as the quality of the paint that is left is amazing.

I do my own wheels as well, I have just built a pair of campy c/w Ambrosio Montreal tubular rims with butted stainless spokes which fit the time era. I have some Gipiemme hubs that I want to build onto clinchers because I have these hubs on my Gitane, but thought they could play nice and share them if I wanted to be able to fix a puncture.

I used to build a lot of classic motorbikes when I was younger (cue hovis add music) so got into building my own wheels then, in fact I am going on a Cyctech wheel building course the end of the month, I like learning and want to see if there is a better way than I do it! When I eventually retire (if they stop moving retirement age up) I will build wheels, I get great pleasure from it, everyone is on the spectrum…..

VintageSteelEU

Got 3 French headsets left. 1 Motobecane in decent condition, 1 Motobecane in rubbish condition for parts and I think 1 Stronglight P3 later model, incomplete (and not sure if it's French at the moment). So generally I should be fine, but always happy with anything with low stack height if the price is right. I understand there is a C&V Marketplace available for actually selling C&V parts and bicycles.

I have it on 2 out of 3 Motobecane frames and have seen it in many photos available online. Not sure what models "qualified" for this braze-on thing, but it's not a later modification.

Post 3615 in this thread: Show your French bikes
Right now the wheels changed to Mavic MA2 built on Maillard low flange hubs with Michelin Dynamic CLassic tyres and I still have to put the rear mudguard on. I'll put them both in the Motobecane Photos thread in a few days, don't want to hijack this one I got back to working on another frame, but that won't be ready for months.

Well, I repainted Grand Sprint for the same reason (severly damaged paint). I'm generally pleased with the job I've done on it, though if I were to do it again, I would send it to be painted.

VintageSteelEU

Well, got some more numbers to add. I'm working on 1980 Motobecane C5 right now. I think it's a 1980 model and I base it on the bicycle coming to me with Selle Italia Turbo, which was manufactured first in 1980 and I think it was original to the bike. I mean, that's a few assumptions really, could be a bit older or newer and previous owner might have replaced the saddle a few years after the purchase.
Unfortunately, the frame had significant amount of rust and also needs repairs to the seat tube, which would required the paint to be stripped from the section in need of repair. I decided to strip all the paint, also to be able to assess how bad the rust really is underneath the paint, but because the tubes are Columbus SL, I had to be extra gentle. I used a fine grade (I guess around 600-800) sandpaper for everything exept the lugs, dropouts and BB shell, so that was fun (not really). Still have some bits to do before I get it ready for any further steps, but I could uncover some numbers and see them clearly.
The main number on the BB shell is 05315492 and further towards the rear end of the bicycle there is 3109. On the front side it's stamped with "P" whatever that might mean. On the down tube there is 579 stamped near the BB shell. Barely visible in the photo, but clear enough when looking at the frame in person. Manufacturing date of the tube, perhaps? Head tube lugs have both BCM (Bocama?) stamped on them. Fork dropouts are marked "Huret", there's nothing I can see so far on the rear dropouts. The seatpost binder lug has 72 stamped on it. I'm assuming it's the seat tube angle.







Well, found 1750 on the drive side dropout after all.

awac

Just a thought on the paint stripping. I used to do a fair bit of hobby woodworking and a finishing book I have suggests for stripping the paint of awkward items like chairs was to coat it in paint stripper and seal it inside a plastic bag overnight, take out, coat again etc. Be careful with the fumes as you open the bag…it allows the stripper to penetrate without evaporating.

VintageSteelEU

It's much cleaner now. I did use some paint stripper, but in the end I found that whereas fine sand paper is time consuming, it also prooved to be most efficient. So It just took a lot of elbow grease. Right now the frame is still waiting until I have some more time to get back to it.

haw

Is this thread still active? I can't upload photos because I'm new to the forum, but I'm hoping to ID my Motobecane. Numbers at the base of the frame are 4181451, with 018 stamped just below that. Any help would be appreciated.

VintageSteelEU

I think it is active, just not noisy Perhaps you could upload links to Flickr album for example (Possibly? I've no idea if that's permissible).
Best way to figure out what you have is to take everything you know about the bicycle and compare it with the catalogues (for example: Motobecane Catalogues). But also look for the French ones. What lugs were used? What tubing? Which head badge (square, round?) Any branding on dropouts? Disclaimer: I'm by no means a specialist or expert. I just love Motobecanes, great bicycles.

daverup 

Here is the bottom bracket of what was advertised as a 1976 Grand Jubilee Mixte.
Sorry for the grime, this was as found.