2_i 

I keep a can of Rema fluid and a container of solvent Heptane. If the fluid thickens, I dilute it. I fill my own small glass vials off Ebay as containers for on the road use, rather than rely on commercial tubes. If the fluid thickens in a vial it can be diluted too. No, I do not go through massive number amounts of fluid or patches, but I need a working infrastructure when in need it and I service other people.

timsmcm

It's never the patch that is bad. You either touched the back of it or used old glue. If the glue is not fresh it has no vulcanizing power. Found out the hard way.

Papa Tom

Never touched the back, and it was the first time I had used the kit, which was inside of a year old.

dscheidt

Patches can go bad. We had a bunch (boxes and boxes, all from the same batch) that were bad, they'd been stored improperly, and exposed to high enough temperatures to set off the vulcanizing ultra-accelerator that's part of the working surface of the patch. I would expect patches stored in a seat bag to have the same problem in hot climates.

That said, mis application is much more likely. Too much glue, not enough glue, not letting the glue thoroughly dry, not enough sanding before applying the glue, or improper stitching of the patches. Not enough sanding, not letting the glue dry, and putting the glue on too thick are the ones I see people do all the time.

Papa Tom

Truthfully, I think i just "missed" the micro-puncture with the first patch, which is why I've taken such an interest in the leak finder gadget we've been discussing. The patch itself is as solid as anything I have ever seen, as if it's part of the rubber tube, as I mentioned earlier.

The second patch, which I applied next to the original (overlapping by a little bit) was sort of a half-ssed job that didn't take at all. The THIRD patch (the tube I punctured intentionally) is holding just fine.

Bottom line? I think the failures in this experiment were all user-errors, not the fault of the kit. If I could take back my comments about patches going bad without ruining the flow of this thread, I would.

Papa Tom

Gonna be away from 9/23 to 9/29 with no time to play. Don't think I'm another one of those OP's who starts a fire and then doesn't stick around to help put it out. If there are any more comments in this thread, I will see them when I return!

Papa Tom

Amazing. Today I went to ANOTHER, even LARGER major bike shop, about 15 miles from home,in an effort to avoid buying my next set of Rema patches online. Just like the first shop, all the salespeople looked at me like I was speaking in a foreign tongue. "WHAT's the brand? REMO?"

The two shops I have tried are huge, like car dealerships, with aisle after aisle of road bikes, mountain bikes, comfort bikes, BMX bikes, exercise bikes, and separate departments for all the high-end stuff, repairs, etc. You can find two dozen brands of chain lube, eighteen different model mini frame pumps, and about a hundred different styles of headlamps and blinkies, but each of these two shops carries exactly ONE type of patch kit. You guessed it...the one by Park Tool.

JoeTBM 

Anyone know of an on-line source with shipping to the US?

cyccommute 

This is untrue. There is nothing in the vulcanizing fluid that will oxidize. Air in the tube isn't a problem. We have cans of vulcanizing fluid at my local co-op that have much more air-to-fluid in them then you'll find in the tube and they still work. The cap just needs to be kept tightly in place to prevent evaporation of the solvent.

I disagree. I've successfully used old vulcanizing fluid that barely had any solvent left in it. As I said above, there is nothing in the fluid that will oxidize in air. Cans of the fluid are useful to the last drops if you keep the solvent from evaporating. I suspect that you could even add solvent to old dried cans of vulcanizing fluid and dissolve the fluid as long as you get the proper solvent.

The stability of the fluid to air oxidation is further illustrated by the fact that you can leave a tube that has had vulcanizing fluid out on a bench top for weeks and still successfully patch the tube. As long as there is no solvent (and not too much dust), the patch will adhere to the fluid (more a "solid" after a few weeks)

cyccommute 

Copy. The key is that the tubes say "rubber cement". It will work and will probably hold but it's not the same as the vulcanizing fluid nor the accelerator present on the Rema patches that do actual chemistry.

cyccommute 

Many, if not most, bike shops, as well as most bicyclist, don't understand that there is a difference between patch kits. As far as I know, Rema is the only patch kit that uses vulcanizing fluid. Most others use rubber cement because they are either ignorant of the chemistry or don't want to invest in the research. Since you can get by with rubber cement and it is cheap, most people go that route.

There is also something of an economic aspect to patch kits. Rubber cement is more likely to fail so people just give up and buy new tubes. Bike shops make more money on tubes than on patches so there is little reason to go with the better patch kits.

cyccommute 

I had one many years ago...much more then 20...and while it is interesting, it's not all that useful. I eventually found that I could find the leak more easily by "kissing the tube". I just over fill the tube so that it is well expanded...that helps with the frustrating slow leaks...then pass the tube in from of my lips. Human lips are very sensitive and even a slight flow of air is detectable.

Papa Tom

Sorry...I will stroke my tubes gently and whisper sweet nothings to them, but kissing is where I draw the line.

SBinNYC

This does not exactly relate to the quote but there are other aspects.

Long ago (shortly after WW II and probably before), bike shops would patch tubes (with hot vulcanizing fluid) if someone came in with a flat.

They don't do that now for several reasons. First, patching takes a few more minutes and time is money for repairs. Second, people can get flats as soon as they leave the shop that are unrelated to the patch. They will blame the shop for poor workmanship. Supplying a new tube removes that complaint. Three, related to two, there's a liability question should the cyclist suffer injury due to an alleged faulty patch.

I think the economic rationale (point one) is probably faulty. The proliferation of tube sizes has greatly increased the inventory that a bike shop must keep. If the increased inventory cost were factored in, I'd bet the few extra minutes to apply a patch would be less expensive for the shop. Points two and three are still sufficient to tip the balance towards replacement rather than repair.

noglider 

@Papa Tom, I think this means that not many people patch their tubes any more. It's strange to you and me, but I accept it as reality. It's time for you to order online.

I've had two LBS owners tell me they prefer me to order online than ask them to special order things. It surprised me, but I also accept it.

Papa Tom

SB - Good argument for why bike shops don't want to patch tubes. But why wouldn't they want to sell the best available patch kit to customers who insist on patching their own?

noglider - I rarely get flats, so when I do, it's just easier to replace the tube. I didn't bother patching the damaged ones until recently, when someone told me about Rema patch kits and I tried one myself. My results have been inconsistent (probably due to human error), but it's still the best kit I have ever used.

I guess, at this point, I have made a commendable enough effort to give my business to the brick-and-mortars. As you said, time to order online. The problem is, I held off on buying certain other items at these two retail stores so I can stack a few things and get free shipping. Now, the stores have not only lost out on my $5 patch kit, but on some tubes, tools, and other stuff that will probably add up to about $75.

cyccommute 

As I said (or at least implied), it's mostly due to ignorance. People think that all patch kits are the same. Even people here on the BikeForums. That's one of the reasons that I'm very fastidious about saying "vulcanizing fluid" when talking about Rema patches vs other patches. There is chemistry going on with the Rema but not with the other patch kits.

You could educate the brick-and-mortars about Rema if you want. Have them order some Rema products from QBP (almost all bike shops have an account with QBP). I think you could also order individual patch kits (i.e. not a box of 24 patch kits) as well as tubes of glue from J & B Importers. Fewer shops have accounts with J&B. I have ordered tubes of glue and boxes of 100 F1 (25mm) and F0 (16mm) patches. I really like the 16mm patches for road tires.

When the store asks why you are ordering Rema, explain to them that there is a difference and what that difference is. I educated ya, go out and use it!

Racing Dan

A patched tube is every bit as good as a new one. Ive been patching for the past 3 decades and never have I had a patch fail. The trick is to sand well, then apply the glue and wait for the solvent to fully evaporate. Then the patch will instantly fuse to the tube when applied. I tend to save up a few tubes before patching a small batch and rust rotate. All my tubes have one or more patches. Some have several.

pdoege

I use Rema patches as well, but I'd like to mention that the Park Tools VP-1 patch kit uses vulcanizing fluid and works quite well.

For more info: https://www.parktool.com/product/vulcanizing-patch-kit-vp-1#tabbed-section

delbiker1 

I also have had good results with Slime glueless patches. I have a couple of tubes that were patched with them last year and they are still lot leaking. I usually buy seamless tubes and that helps working with any patch. I carry both a patch kit and a tube with me. I choose which to use depending on how long I want to spend patching and where I am when the flat occurs. Some places I really just want to get the tire pressure back up and ride on, especially high traffic areas.

SBinNYC

Rema makes a lot of products for repairing motorcycle, car and truck tubes and tires. Their bicycle business is small compared to the other applications for their products. Therefore, their U.S. distributor network concentrates on where the volume and money is and views the bicycle business more as a sideline. Bicycles are Park's only business. They hit every bike shop they can find. This difference explains why shops might not have heard of Rema.

The sales of patch kits is declining. A NYC bike shop owner commented that when he started 30 years ago, he sold 2 tubes for every patch kit. Now it's 300 tubes for every patch kit. This explains why bike shop owners may not go out of their way to order Rema. BTW, he stocks Rema and also sells patches and cold fluid vulcanizing tubes individually.

dscheidt

the last time I looked, the SDS for the glue in the slime patch kits said it contained cyclohexylamine, which is a vulcanizing accelerator, and more importantly an activator for most of the zinc dithiocarbamate ultra-accelerators used in the bonding layer of good patches.

Certainly the jar of the slime stuff I bought at an auto parts place is a proper vulcanizing fluid.

Part of what makes Rema patches superior is that they react to the fluid properly. They're also nicely thin and supple. I've used the Park VP-1 kit, it works fine (and it's a proper vulcaninzed repair), but the patches aren't as nice as Rema's.

AnkleWork

The SDS currently linked from Slime's website does not mention cyclohexylamine or anything other than alkane and alkene solvents, and their MSDS from years ago (when compounds like cyclohexylamine would be listed) did not list it or any other accelerator. I've never seen Slime list an accelerator or refer to their glue as anything other than "rubber cement" -- never "accelerator" or "catalyst" or "cross linker."

BTW, Rema's SDS lists N-cyclohexyl-N-ethylamine. Also, Rema publishes marketing claims that their glue is a cross linking accelerator, which would be actionable if false.

Papa Tom

I'm not going to overthink this. I will order the REMA patches online, but now I am going to wait until Spring 2019, when I get back on the road full-time again after the coming winter. Better chance the vulcanizing fluid will stay fresh until I actually need it.

For now, I've got enough patches and glue to get by in the highly unlikely event of another flat.