Duragrouch

Bike shops don't buy stuff directly from the manufacturer, as far as I know. They buy from distributers, who may not work for the manufacturers, instead being one-stop-shopping for dealers. Let me know if this is wrong. But if so, who knows where the distributer gets their parts? I would imagine perhaps that REI, due to their size, can buy direct from the manufacturers(?) I think computerized authentication will solve this, for everyone.

Now ya got me looking at my KMC packaging, gonna scroll up to compare... checks out good on multiple fronts.

FBinNY 

Buying bike parts, or any consumer goods is like eating in restaurants.

If you care about good good and service, you'll tend to avoid restaurants along highways, or in major tourist destinations, because they cater to an ever changing audience, and rarely see the same diners twice.

Instead, you'll go to in town restaurants that serve a limited community. Those places can't afford to sacrifice quality because they are totally dependant on repeat business.

Bike shops and the distributors that serve them can't fool around with counterfeits because their most important asset is their reputation.

veganbikes

We do a bit of both. I certainly do a bulk of ordering through distributors as it is easy and I can get a wide variety but in some cases some companies don't have a distributor or don't sell that particular product through a distributor or I can get better margins or have a lower order quantity. Generally bikes are through the manufacturers but a lot of other stuff is generally more served through distributors but not in all cases for either one.

FBinNY was spot on.

Duragrouch

I agree.

That said, it brought to mind a documentary I saw a couple years back, about a very old (165 years) and renowned NYC art dealer that knowingly acted as agent to sell a bunch of modernist art, meticulously crafted, but their hired authenticators were able to spot them as fakes from analysis of paints and other things, and the gallery president sold them as genuine anyway, made tons on commissions. Fakes of very high end artists; Rothko, Pollock, de Kooning, Motherwell, et al. Over $80 million. Then it was discovered and lots of money paid out in settlements, gallery closed. Very little consequences for all involved. Like the crash of 2008, only one small bank was prosecuted, the biggies got off scot-free with no criminal charges. Someone distributing fake bike chains is more likely to be prosecuted.

Sy Reene

What's the point of counterfeiting a KMC chain, or put another way, what's the point of of KMC chains -- their cost seems very comparable versus the dedicated system manufacturers.

KMC cheapest X11 chain is $30 MSRP. Shimano 105 chain MSRP is $33. Maybe it's easier to be assured of the supply chain/authenticity of a Shimano branded product?

grumpus

They quite likely dropped a cookie on your browser so it still shows as valid, but on a different device it won't.

veganbikes

They are a company that makes chains that is their point. They make a chain they think is a good chain and worth while. Is has technology that they believe is going to do better and they also have done chains specific to the growing E-bike market. In terms of counterfeiting the point is they can make some a-hole with fewer to no moral scruples some money. Unfortunately people will fake whatever because it is a quick buck, they just have to fake the package and make the product look close enough and they are on easy street as the company they faked will do all the marketing and they just have to insert themselves where they can on Amazon or Taobao or Alibaba and his 40 thieves...and sell it and some sucker will buy it thinking "wOW I got such a deal. on this chain, I know have extra money for other things" (pretend Christopher Walken read it)

There are plenty of Shimano fakes and probably SRAM too. If you (general) want authentic product buy it, it isn't hard there are plenty of authorized dealers for Shimano, KMC, SRAM, RaceFace...you name it. If you want to buy fakes then you have a problem and should seek help but go to any site that is not bicycle specific and not an authorized dealer and you have access to a garbage heap of knockoff and fake junk that will help make multi billionaires even richer.

It is sad too because China did have Ip Man but he didn't do anything for IP but he did train Bruce Lee and others in martial arts mastery so cannot complain too much.

Duragrouch

I'm running 7-speed budget components and KMC 8.1 chains with quicklink were going for $10 new on amazon two years ago, that's cheap, half the price of Shimano. Packaging looks authentic, worked great, chain has lasted. On my current setup, I'll probably go with similar quality, but next time I'll buy a couple and wax them, used to do for cleanliness, didn't realize it's more durable as well. Overhauled friends' bikes, Deore mountain, I used equivalent Shimano chain, cassette, and bottom bracket cartridge; Ultegra road bike, used equivalent Shimano chain. I match chain quality with other drivetrain components. And since my labor is free, they don't mind spending a bit more for quality parts.

timtak

The chain was 1/3 of the price of the bike shop chain. I bought two and wasted 20 USD. The gloves, inner tubes, tyres, wheels, cassettes, chain rings and bikes that I have purchased online from Taiwan and China more than make up for that loss. I never buy stuff from bike shops, and get it all online. The bike shop prices are too high for me. I would not have taken up, and I don't think I would do, road bike cycling at road bike shop prices.

veganbikes

Then don't buy expensive stuff. Buying fakes and knockoffs is not a solution to monetary concerns it helps nobody but the people at the top in this knockoff factories and that is it. It is a literal false economy. If you must stay towards the bottom then get stuff that is their own brand making their own actual products and no fakes, no knockoffs or anything like that just legitimate product but made for budget stuff like Microshift for instance. I am not claiming it is the greatest stuff but certainly compared to fakes it is a much better solution because it least it is real product you can get real support for from an actual dealer should the need arise.

The online marketplaces that sell the products are so cheap because they have people at the top who make most of the money and the people at the bottom are treated like crap, they buy whatever from wherever and resell it or allow whomever with whatever to sell. That is why it seems cheap it is not really cheap but if you beat down the lower man and plunder and pillage from whatever IP you want you can make your stuff seem cheaper.

timtak

I thought it was a real KMC chain. The packaging looked real based upon my analysis of the packaging of real KMC chains earlier in this thread.

veganbikes

And that is what they are good at and the end goal of these companies make you think you are buying legit products but at some really low price it undercuts everyone and leaves you screwed because the seller is highly unlikely to help if you ever have an issue and KMC is not going to support a product that isn't their's despite a convincing package. You get left out in the cold, the people who made it are in a similar boat. KMC is screwed because someone might think that is their product and now they have lost customers because you will probably tell your friends and so on and now have to spend money fighting these folks. However the guy at the top of factory who pumps this stuff out and the already super wealthy people who run these companies that sell these products make lots of money.

timtak

I am not aware of an alternative. I am not very interested in brands and in large part place my trust in the sellers (and the aliexpress refund policy) but sometimes the bike stuff on sale from China is famous-name branded. I don't feel inclined to avoid such products because there are not sold with a large retail mark-up. I am not feeling screwed overall, but occasionally I make a mistake and when I do I share the information here so that others can avoid purchasing from those who charge a large mark up, and get good equipment from the countries that make it. I also share the information regarding fake products here so that manufacturers like KMC are not screwed.


The solution to fake products is not, imho, to allow bike shops to charge a protection fee. Bike shops are said to charge a mark up of about 50%.
https://sharpsheets.io/blog/how-prof...s-a-bike-shop/
To be screwed that hard I would need to purchase a useless fake half the times I make a purchase from aliexpress, which is far from the case.

Addendum
I see that some of the X10 KMC chains (the Aurora and Gold) on sale from the official American online store, there does not seem to be an official online store serving East Asia, have flat, not chamfered, inner plates, so there is still a chance that the silver and (unchamfered) black chains I have purchased are genuine KMC. I will report back when I know how long they last.

2_i 

Did you actually try to use that refund policy?! I painfully found it to be just another scam. I suggest reading people's experiences on the Trustpilot.

veganbikes

You trust random sellers on Alibaba and his 40 thieves? That is not a good way to go, they are only and purely interested in your money and nothing else.

There is no protection fee or anything like that and those "mark ups" are not mark ups those are generally MSRP (Manufacturers suggested retail price) or MAP (Minimum advertised price) they are there to ensure that people aren't undercutting each other and creating a price war. The prices you see are generally for fake items being sold under whatever name or they are not an authorized reseller and have potentially done something unscrupulous to obtain product. There is no magical way to sell a quality product at bottom of the barrel prices and make money for anyone unless it is fake or knock off and using sweatshops and poor business practices. There is going to be a cost for goods. Sure there are some shops who may charge a little more for an item because maybe they bought fewer of them or something like that or it is what the market can bear and that is what it is but it is not protection fees or something to artificially raise it because somehow some billionaires figured out a way to sell "genuine" product for less than cost.

Looking at the links the chain is $25 which generally not that expensive, sure there are people who are really really struggling where $25 is a lot of money but if you are involving yourself in more expensive hobbies and having extra computer time and such $25 probably not a huge deal a couple times a year maybe or once every few years. Of course yes Alibaba and his 40 thieves can sell a knock off version for ACTUALLY it is MORE eeek $44.00 (but it is the nickel and black version so that one is $32 at KMC). Talk about mark up, batman. I am not linking to it because I don't like to support them but I searched KMC chain on Alibaba and his 40 thieves website and clicked the top link to a "Dongguan Haoqi".

And no Bike shops are not rolling in money, we are not wearing top hats and monocles and having money fights on our million dollar yachts. Some are doing well but not so well that we are rich. There is a lot of costs associated with running a real business and a bike shop in the U.S. is generally going to have some struggle. It is not to say you cannot be successful but successful at a bike shop does not lead to such massive profits where people are getting really rich off of it. However if you run an online business and don't pay or treat employees well and sell fake goods and screw customers sometimes you can make billions, you have no soul or morality left but you can make billions as the Alibaba and Amazon execs have done.

timtak

Yes. I have returned about 3 or four things over the years. On one or two occasions I was asked to pay half, for some pedals that were a bit iffy (but one of them was okay). I was given a full refund for the chain I mentioned earlier in the thread.


veganbikes

I buy lots of things from aliexpress and my experience with them has been very good. For example, recently I have bought several pairs of neon yellow Spandex pants at $5 (stealth black long pants are about 15 more expensive at shops). Cleats at $4 (that last longer than Shimano). A saddle bag at $3. 48 puncture pads that work for me at about $1.5. Road bike inner tubes at $4. Bicycle chain pliers at bout $1.5. Brakepads at about Ultegra quality at $3 a pair. I saved the money I lost on the chains with one pair of pants, I think. Good luck with your business.

gkamieneski

Twice got hit with counterfeit KMC X10 chains and Amazon provided a refund. As I recall you could tell by the fonts on the packaging and the special grooves on the outer plates. I believe there is an article out there helping one to determine the fakes.

2_i 

I easily have 200, maybe 300, AliExpress purchases. One of the last ones was a voltage inverter. I ordered one for US 110-120V. They sent me one for 220-240V. I nearly destroyed the first device I connected. They provided me with a shipping return label. I will get a refund once they receive it. The tracking showed that their warehouse received the order. Two months of correspondence followed. They demanded that I jump one hoop after another. Ultimately, they claimed that the address on the shipping label was not their warehouse. Refund denied. Hundreds of similar reports on TrustPilot mirror my experience. There is some petition floating around for a class action suit against them.

My previous refund experiences were frustrating. I got 50% back for Ti handlebars whose left side did not match the right. These handlebars are useless, even as raw material. I got a full refund for an item I sent back to China, with shipping nearly matching the total I paid. In other cases, I was promised a refund or replacement and never got any. Maybe a couple of cases where I got a full refund after jumping some hoops.

The majority of items I bought were not quite usable as promised. However, I could scavenge some parts or ideas. I treat Aliexpress as a shadowy operation from which I can benefit a bit due to the low prices. The more I bought from there, the better I understood the platform's operation and product supply and the less I expected. Will I continue to buy? Presumably, yes, at some limited level. I learned that the more basic the product, such as bolts or nuts, the safer the purchase.

Duragrouch

(above) Nuts and bolts may seem simple but sounds like I would not buy grade 3, 5 or 8 bolts from Ali. Basic low-strength and stainless hardware, maybe. But I haven't bought yet on Ali if only because I am concerned about giving out my charge card number to any foreign entity. I don't like the behemoth amazon has become, but service has always been great. Bought a 2X crank that was supposed to be aluminum chainrings and it arrived with steel rings, wrote to seller, no problem, will send you aluminum rings from china, no need to get amazon involved, and it took 3 weeks to get routed through their customs agent in Nevada but they arrived, and they changed their ad to state steel rings on 9-speed crank, aluminum on 10/11 speed cranks. Amazon seems to do a good job of keeping sellers in line for accurate description and easy returns, within a time period of about 3 weeks I think. I only use my LBS because this one has a fantastic used parts section with great prices, but that crank with bearings I bought, was less cost brand new than used at the LBS. But other parts are good deals used.

2_i 

These are indeed standard stainless bolts, nuts, washers, and springs that I sometimes buy from AliExpress. As to Amazon's descriptions, I had the opposite experience with a chainring described as out of aluminum. In that case, Amazon was the vendor. A steel ring came in, and I sent them a photo with a magnet attached to the ring. They never changed the description, but I had no problem with the return. With more specialized products, I learned that there is nobody to communicate with on the Amazon side. When a bicycle vendor is selling there, you can communicate with them before and after the sale. Typically, though, I prefer to order from a reputable bike vendor directly.

Duragrouch

I think the crank I bought on amazon may have been sold directly from the manufacturer. If not, definitely in China. That super deal on a crank is no longer available on amazon, but same product is on ebay, I don't know if someone bought them to resell, or original seller went ebay for better profit, I think the former because only 770 sales up until now for all bike parts they sell, but still from China; Same price, and still free shipping too, but amazon is easier and better confidence in resolution if a problem. This particular crank, tube-spindle 2-piece crank (ersatz HT2), is common in 4-bolt pattern but I wanted 5x110mm, LBS didn't have except used at higher price, this was the only supplier. I've been just incredibly happy with the quality and price.

Ryan_M

Those are the dice we roll buying from online sources. I'm lucky that I havent recived a conterfeit (that I'm able to discern) yet.... I imagine it will happen someday, but the money saved so far outweighs that IMO. Parts are typically less than half the price of what they cost locally.

Duragrouch

Somebody ought to talk to TJ Maxx about selling past-generation bike parts at a steep discount.

Ryan_M

I don't know what this means.

Duragrouch

TJ Maxx is a USA chain of clothing stores that specializes in selling past season/year fashions. I haven't been in one in decades, but in the '90s found a lot of good Ralph Lauren stuff (which were actually good copies of 1930s fashions), like classic wool sweaters, leather aviation style jackets, etc. Big discount from (admittedly overpriced) original price. So if there was a bike equivalent, it would sell new Deore and Ultegra 8-speed stuff at cheap brand-x component prices. In winter, sell last summer's $40 kevlar Specialized tires for $7. (Like Nashbar used to!)