gvincent

Hi
I am new to this forum and was wanting to know if anyone could check the detalis of my bike. I am the original owner of a masi which I used to race when I was much younger. The bike has been totally rebuilt and painted by Brian Baylis years ago. I spent many years since then buying new NOS gear for it once I could afford it financially. I would be interested in knowing if anyone can look up old serial numbers. I am looking at the bottom bracket and I can see "SL59" stamped on the metal as well as "GF+". Does anyone know what these mean?

george

Thalia949

Below is a link to an excellent site for info on Masi serial numbers


Masi Dates

gvincent

Thalia
thanks for the link. unfortunately, according to Brian Baylis who painted my bike, he indicated to me that it was Italian made and estimated 1972 based on decals. It does have the GF+ designating who cast the BB but dont see any documentation for the SL59.

majmt 

Looks like your bike is already in the Italian registry on the Hovey site.

Masi Registry Italy

gvincent

Excellent. Thanks for quick reply. Don't think I can upload images yet since I just registered today but will send you pictures once I am able.

​​​​​​

repechage

Brian was one of the Go-to guys to paint a Masi. He painted one of mine.
if he said it was a 1972, he is probably correct.
‘there was a fork crown that was unique to that year, but not exclusive.
‘some had a month and year stamp on the steerer.
‘also, a small pip under the seat lug to secure a pump was a thing, 1971-1972.
dropped when the Silca Impero frame fit pumps arrived.
Masi got those early. The unchosen 1973.
bonus points if you have the MASI gold foil stamped original pump.

SL was a builder code, probably a sub contracted frame, the fork may or may not have been built by them.

we know what some of these code indicate but I do not know that one.
‘Alberto has variously admitted and denied subcontractors.
he is retired.
‘Simone was running the show but the refurbishment of the Vigorelli left him without a shop for a long while, unclear if he was finally able to get moved back in.
might look on Facebook, a venue I avoid completely.

the problem, there are no serial numbers.
‘this was before the EU required them.
‘the common logic was that for most of the Italian builder it was a tax man avoidance routine.
‘maybe one reason Cinelli serial numbers have NO logic whatsoever. Caprice. Whimsy. Some even appear to be retrograde in counting.

merziac

Add them to your homepage album and we'll bring them along.

Welcome aboard, glad you found us.

gvincent

Thank you for your prompt and informative history lesson! I will take some pictures and upload soon. I think you will enjoy. Ever since I replaced old equipment with new, I've been reluctant to ride it

repechage

The definitive Masi visual reference.
‘why someone bought so many for himself one year?
I know not

https://www.velostuf.com/pictures-ga...an-criteriums/

one did sell on eBay way back for like $4k plus ship.

note these are 61cm bikes, 59 was about the biggest to create a “frame fit” of the original design pump.
‘there was another image set of the complete unwrapping of a champagne colored one.
note the paint on the bolt ends, also done for the top tube cable clips.
not all of this batch received the same BB socket spigot windows and fork reinforcement cutouts.
they would migrate to 3 graduated round ports, then in 1973 return to what was seen here.

repechage

buy a rider Carlsbad Masi. Amaze your friends, be the life of the party.

I just counted up mine, 13 my size - American and Italian.
1 spouse sized.

gvincent

great pictures on the link! Fork for the 71 quite different than mine.

repechage

Yes, the images show the variation, these were “hand wrought” by that I mean to say that things varied. This was the first I saw of a Reynolds decal on a GC, who knows why, perhaps a request for Reynolds blades?
Interesting that the bike with the 531 fork transfer does not have a frame tube proclamination.

Doug Fattic 

My 1972 Masi GC my parents got for me in Milan (pictures of them collecting it are on Bob Hovey's site) has a Reynolds 531 frame decal in Italian. I remember my mom telling me she asked Faliero about the Reynolds tubing and he told her that he thought 531 was a superior quality tubing. The frame (without any parts on it except a headset) hangs in my workshop for my framebuilding class students to study.

Actually the Masi my parents picked up for me did not come home with them. It was stolen in their rental car while they went to see the Shroud of Turin. My mom pleaded to get it replaced and another one arrived in October with a steerer mark of 9-72. My frame is marked V 58.

My colleague Rich Gangl wanted to make a tribute frame like the one he 1st raced on and unfortunately his brother sold. By putting my Masi in my stainless steel laser cut and etched Ukrainian made fixture, I could read directly all of its dimensions and angles. What I found interesting is that the top tube slopes up 6 mm. It is not dead level.


The non-English Reynolds 531 decal

By putting my Masi in my Ukrainian made fixture, I can read directly all of its dimensions and angles.

repechage

Yep, the up sloping top tube was a “thing”
it varied. I have multiples of the same size to compare, Italian and Carlsbad.

the jig frame has corrections noted on it.
the lower head lug is too low. Like pista low.
the stamped lug Carlsbad bad bike - reasonably early 1974 slopes up.

the surprise is the mid 1975 frame.
it slopes up also- 6mm
this was long after Mario was running the show and by report was NOT using the jig frames.
Brian Baylis in 2001 reported that he could not figure out how Mario set up the fixtures but had a series of angle blocks. The rest was in his noggin. When he left so did the recipe.
Brian left and had returned when the Carlsbad shop was essentially shut down. He noted Albert Eisentraut was confounded with the jig frames. They did not make sense to him.
Brian mentioned to him that they were not used.
In essence, Albert was on his own.
save for the few Finished and unsold frame sets if he referenced those. I bought one of those in 1978 for my girlfriend. We broke up and she kept the bike.

repechage

Here is a curiosity- a post Carlsbad bike
the majority of MASI GC’s had the brake blocks at the minimum reach- jammed all the way up on a “normal” reach caliper.
here from an EBay auction the bike has loads of tire clearance.
I have seen a few others so afflicted.
most from what I call the “dark days”
of 1977-78. Many of those bikes had unusual graphic placement and colors. My guess using up old transfer inventory?

Robvolz 

OK, I apologize if this has come up before.

Is there a "sure-thing" to recognize an Italian vs California MASI?

Not stickers, but a tell?

Like the wing window vs no wing window on a 67-68 Camero? (The 67 has a wing window, the 68, nope)

Thank you for your expertise.

gvincent

Thanks for the detailed info. I always thought Masi GC had only Columbus tubing. Didn't realize Reynolds tubes were also used

repechage

Bikes from both venues evolved. So not really any ONE attribute.
Bob Hovey has done a decent job of pointing one in the right direction.
elsewhere on his webpages he has images in the Masi Bits page to make things visual.

Doug Fattic 

Just in case someone is interested in the geometry of my Italian V 58 Masi Gran Criterium, here are pics of its dimensions as shown in my fixture. I feel fortunate that this fixture I designed and have laser cut in Ukraine can accurately decode the geometry of any C&V frame. Its real purpose is to design custom frames. It replaces doing a full scale drawing. And I spot braze the front triangle in it to hold it together for brazing.


It has a BB drop of 76mm

It has a seat tube angle of 72 1/2º

It has a head tube angle of 73º

While Masi identifies it as a 58 center to top, its actual seat tube length center to center measurement is 55.7cm.

Its actual center to center sloping top tube length is 56.2cm. If the top tube was perfectly level, that would add a millimeter or so.

It has a fork rake of 50mm

this shows the V 58 marking

repechage

Yep. Way back those who had Bikes from the Vigorelli thought they were better because of the Columbus tubing.

During the Carlsbad years, Columbus was an “off menu” extra cost option. $25. And very Most likely Confente built it.
Reynolds was stated to be more forgiving to braze. The two do vary a bit, I accepted it.

for the most part, in a blind comparison test, I don’t think one could tell in the normal gauges the two sets apart.
I will state for the GC, the fork crown could alter the ride, at least to me. The twin plate absorbed bumps better. Go over a washboard surface at the wrong speed and it would vibrate more, speed up or slow down, that would go away.

repechage

V for Verona, that guy who came to the USA and made a name for himself was from Verona. That knot was denied and finally admitted to by Alberto.
the only surprise to me is the BB drop, many had less, like 73 mm. Yeah, only about an 1/8th of an inch…
at 76mm of drop, I would call that Road Race. Way back I bought two road machines, a Masi GC and a Harry Quinn, that I would definitely categorize as a Criterium bike. Ultra short, steep and a high bottom bracket. Very useful for its purpose.

seagrade 

Beautiful frame and very interesting to see the geometry of the era thanks. Could the frame have been built for a lower stack Gran Sport headset, and if so would that account for some of the top tube slope (assuming it’s sloping up to the headset…)?

Doug Fattic 

Before and after I learned to build frames at Ellis Brigs in Yorkshire in 1975, I visited a lot of builders to learn any secrets that might be useful. Including in that big group was Masi in Milan and Harry Quinn in Liverpool. I saw the room where the Masi fixtures were located and it wasn't obvious to me how they were used to build frames. There was no translator or someone named Masi while I was there and it would have been a bit rude to ask too direct questions anyway. Most companies don't want to show how they do things to avoid any possible criticism of their methods or giving away any perceived advantages they might have learned. What I think is that their method was to put the top tube on the head and seat tube last. In that case the TT unit w/lugs is slide down on the other tubes until it is the right frame height. Even though this is a fairly common practice, I don't know if Masi or his subcontractors did this, this is just a guess. Anyway, if they hand mitered (most likely in that era), then the top tube would not have been an exact precise mitered length. To ensure the miters are flush against each adjoining tube, the top tube can be titled a bit to insure it connects fully to the other tubes. That takes up any too long or too short length. The reality is you can not under normal circumstances notice a slight slope.

The BB drop variance can also be explained by how they built their rear triangles. Again they could make adjustments to frame geometry to fit already built subassemblies. I thought I heard somewhere that they adjusted their fixtures by placing an already built master frame in them. This would prevent the need to have marking on the fixtures themselves.

It is interesting to me that Albert confirmed that the V Masis were in fact an indication they were made in Verona. I've thought this but saying it out loud can lead to blowback.

Andrew_G 

Rob Roberson told me that when he worked at Masi-CA, the frame jigs were set up using a reference frame (for the selected size).

Andrew G.

repechage

the secret of the origin / maker of the V frames was just that for a long while and denied. At some point near retirement Alberto had a GC restored for a client, it had a V stamp prefix for the size and slotted dropout faces, which look cool but I felt might be a bit delicate depending where the axle was clamped. I first saw those as part of a new Carlsbad on a Mario special build frame. Anyway, Alberto in an origin sheet stated this was the work of Mario Confente. Prior there were some reports in conversation that Mario’s workshop was the Verona subcontractor, but nothing on paper. Some other subtle indicators, the seat lug tang that extends down the front of the seat tube with the graduated holes on the V frames has a nice appearance, I will attach what I can later. From an email exchange with the Confente family, I can confirm that Mario did bring in some help in Verona from time to time.

The subcontractor model in Italy was pretty effective, the seatlug detail like Mario included do show up on later frames out of Italy, but not as well executed. My conjecture was Masi would show an aspect and get others to include things, perhaps to gain more work?

a side note, Mario was working in March 1975 on the investment cast lug patterns at Carlsbad. I saw wax versions of the lugs on his workbench, I knew what the brown wax pattern parts were, I gazed too long most probably, Mario deftly tossed a shop towel over them. Those casting prove-outs did not include the extended tang as seen on the Dubois lugged bikes, the investment cast lugs did have a triangular window below the binder ears. Keeping that detail for himself? He was planning his departure later that year definitely, in 1975 he made the two frames for the Ferrari’s who designed his Confente USA graphics package.

One bike has a fusion of the cast and welded seat lug, I saw that bike in May of 1975, I will call it the Super Masi, hyper detailing, a white 55 or 56 Masi measure bike, chrome PS tubing fork, vertical dropouts, extra attention at the seat stay caps like some Grandis bikes, a milled rear brake bridge, drilled dropout faces, unusual top tube cable stops. White, yellow head tube. Jim Cunningham snapped a few images of the bike with the client before paint outside the plant. I knew that bike was out there. Peter Gilbert found it in Palm Springs and now owns it. Lucky guy, the original owner also had a later commission Confente in what looks on the computer screen as Lamborghini Verde, that wild 1960’s Miura color.

one of the early sub assemblies I saw at Carlsbad was the brazed up head tube to down tube connection.
forks were brazed up with the blades straight, the parabolic curve induced at the end.
Pretty cool I thought, that could well account for some Masi bikes with extra rake induced at the crown, especially the twin plate forks, the blades do not start parallel to the steerer but walk forward a bit.